Das Boot or the American Fleet Boat

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Kromus

Range: 23700 km!(at 12 knots) vs 11000 nm(at 10 knots)

Fixed.

[Kromus]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

Fixed.

http://www.uboat.net/types/ixd.htm

Look for facts first.

Just FYI

Small VIIB was able to make 8700NM! and it was pretty close to 11000nm of US fleet boat range

[Fincuan]

Originally Posted by Kromus

http://www.uboat.net/types/ixd.htm

Look for facts first.

Depends entirely on which "facts" one chooses(tens of site on the internet saying different things), and which type IXD boat we're talking about. The range you listed matches quite well the range of a type IX/D1-uboat in kilometers, while that of a type IX/D2 was supposedly considerably longer, over 30,000 nm.

[Kromus]

Originally Posted by Fincuan

Depends entirely on which "facts" one chooses(tens of site on the internet saying different things), and which type IXD boat we're talking about. The range you listed matches quite well the range of a type IX/D1-uboat in kilometers, while that of a type IX/D2 was supposedly considerably longer, over 30,000 nm.

I really don`t want start a "fight" here but site which exist (at least should be) since 1995 and has SO EXACT and COMPREHENSIVE information would definately not post a BS on basic facts, don`t you think?

Edit:

I also looked here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Type_VII_submarine

values are pretty much the same (info on VIIC), biggest difference is in range 8190 (wiki) vs 8500(uboat).

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Kromus

http://www.uboat.net/types/ixd.htm

Look for facts first.

Just FYI

Small VIIB was able to make 8700NM! and it was pretty close to 11000nm of US fleet boat range

Close only works in horse shoes.

[Krauter]

As someone mentioned earlier in the thread, the two submarines are very hard to compare because each was designed to meet specific needs of it's theatre.

Thus it's like comparing (vague comparison coming..) a crocodile to a dinosaure. Sure they're related, but both predators come to meet different criterias of their region and age.

One point that boggles me is that yes, the earlier Type VIIA and possibly the Type VIIBs cannot really be compared to subs like the Gato, Porpoise, etc. But once the U-Boat operations started running out into the Atlantic Gap (now strictly talking of VII operations, not IX which could actually be compared to Gatos) the operational framework starts to look similar to that of the Pacific. Find, Fix and Destroy convoys and targets of opportunity in the middle of the ocean.

Thus, how do such subs such as the VIIC, VIIC/41 and the planned VIIC/42 compare to the Gatos and their contemporary American cousins.

Secondly, I understand the great difference that Radar makes for the Americans, but I'm really amazed to see that such simple (well not really simple..) things such as diving depth (really a Type VIIA can dive deeper then a Balao..) are greatly different between the two.

Question for you naval types: With the fleet boats larger size, would it not then offer a better chance at diving deeper then the smaller Type VIIs? What is the difference maker here?

I am really interested in the differences between the two campaigns and how they affected the ships that fought them, to this thread

Krauter

Could it be the differances in tactics in the interwar period?

The americans most likely subscribed to the traditional theory of submarines, their role was to sit at periscope depth outside of the enemy home harbor and sink ships of the line as they sailed out for one big battle. The idea was that they were like torpedo boats that could hide for a bit, not roaming underwater death machines.

The germans thought this way as well, but due to the foe being much more obvious and the tactics based much more on attacking escorted supply convoys submerged and getting away underwater, the focus was indeed on long term underwater ops and a deeper diving depth would be needed.

Still cant for the life of my figure out why radar would be a bad idea. If you suspect air activity in the area than switch it off, why deprive yourself of a tool?

[Piggy]

Yeah Ive always found that a bit odd that the fleet boats max depth was well under that of u-boats...

However, could the explanation simply be that the germans had a lot of prior experience with submarines, at war.

What were the diving depths of WW1 U-boats?

Edit: According to U-boat.net the UB III's (most produced of WW1) had a max depth of ~250' (75m).. so not very deep. These boats are quite similar to VII's.

http://www.uboat.net/wwi/types/index.html?type=UB+III

[tater]

Could the VIIA actually dive deeper? Balaos dove far in excess of rated depth and survived, and post war boats which were little different went deeper still.

I think like radar in actual use, this is more necessity than anything else—not of design, but practice. Had the US faced better ASW, our boats would have gone deeper and deeper since when the alternative is certain death, risking a deeper dive is a chance worth taking.

As was said, comparisons are hard due to the situations faced. Seems like the added range and stores in the Fleets would have proved very useful since simply getting to sea was often troublesome for u-boats. Once there, duration on station would be desirable, right? I assume the allies paid special attention to patrolling approaches to u-boat bases. Were they successful in sinking many that were coming or going from port?

[Krauter]

For diving comparisons I`m just assuming the designed crush depth of 200m for VIIAs (220 i believe for VIIC's). Whereas the Balaos was somewhere around 600-650ft.

If I am wrong by all means correct me. Because with the arguments that Balaos could go under the 650mark, the argument that VII's went under the 200m mark is perfectly plausible as well.

Edit: In regards to your earlier post on this page tater.. it's kind of like a damned if you do damned if you don't situation . I have somewhere in a book at home a quote which I will post later on a description of the U-Boat Kaleun. These men are truly magnificent example of bravery and courage

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Kromus

http://www.uboat.net/types/ixd.htm

Look for facts first.

Just FYI

Small VIIB was able to make 8700NM! and it was pretty close to 11000nm of US fleet boat range

Acutally, the range of most US fleet boats was much farther then the figures cited due to wartime modificaitons. The number for a fleet boat is actually closer to 15,000NM