Why end in 1943? - Page 2

Noren · 03-19-10, 08:57 PM

But SH5 has pictures for major and minor victory, aswell as a draw.

03-19-10, 09:05 PM

Thanks, do you recommend SH4 with uboat xpac or stick with SH5?
I know SH5 has only been born but do you think the modders will stick with it?

janh · 03-19-10, 09:07 PM

This discussion seems familiar... Didn't we have it already several times? Did someone just miss to post in the right thread or is it just about optimizing the discussion to perfection? I wonder...

SteamWake · 03-19-10, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I suspect '43 was a good cut off point due to restrictions in budget and development time.

Ding! we really only have time to model one boat...

Yak · 03-19-10, 09:24 PM

That argument doesn't really hold up though, because Type VII's were in use in 1944 and 1945.

SH5 has already clearly demonstrated two things: One they're not too fussed about specific variants of type VII and have a hybrid design with features from all, plus you have the ability to upgrade your boat, so theoretically it wouldn't have been hard for them to slot in the basic upgrades of a 44/45 Type VII over the 1942/43 versions.

magic452 · 03-19-10, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barso

Thanks, do you recommend SH4 with uboat xpac or stick with SH5?
I know SH5 has only been born but do you think the modders will stick with it?

I would recommend SH 4 and Operation Monsoon, goes to the end and you still lose.
That will give them a chance to fix 5.... maybe.
The modders are hard at work on it and are pretty enthusiastic about it so they no doubt will give it their best shot.

Magic

SabreHawk · 03-20-10, 12:03 AM

Why end it in 43' ? because it was over for the Uboat arm by 43', after that they Type VII's rein was at an end, and so few further designs after it saw service they aren't worth doing.
They all but a few were hunted own and sunk or captured.
Essentially, the war was really over for them at that point.

irish1958 · 03-20-10, 07:25 AM

SH5 is called "The Battle of the Atlantic," and this was over in April-May of 1943.
Earlier in 1943, the U-Boats had unprecedented success with overwhelming losses for the Allies in March and April. These losses finally got Adm. King's attention and an all-out Allied war on the U-Boats ensued with massive losses to the U-Boats. As a result, Adm. Donitz recalled all U-Boats from the Atlantic and they never again attacked the convoys, but were limited to defensive action and attacks in the waters near England.
The Battle of the Atlantic was over.

Iron Budokan · 03-20-10, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I suspect '43 was a good cut off point due to restrictions in budget and development time.

I believe you are correct. Except that's not the rationale Ubi gave.

I still don't understand why they just didn't admit it was due to budgetary and time restrictions. No one in their right mind would blame them for that. But the intellectually dishonest rationale they did give for stopping the game in '43 simply doesn't stand up.

03-20-10, 10:17 AM

Thanks, would it be possible to mod the capaign to extend it or am I going to have to wait until ubisoft see's how much profit SH5 made and if it's worth making DLC for it?

Iron Budokan · 03-20-10, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SabreHawk

Why end it in 43' ? because it was over for the Uboat arm by 43', after that they Type VII's rein was at an end, and so few further designs after it saw service they aren't worth doing.
They all but a few were hunted own and sunk or captured.
Essentially, the war was really over for them at that point.

And that's why the entire war is a perfect game arc for a simulation. Games usually get more difficult as time goes on. They operate on an asymptotic curve of level difficulty. This game stops in '43 when the U-boats were at the height of their power. In other words, the arc stops at a plateau. That makes absolutely NO sense in terms of playability.

Unless you're making an arcade.

Oh, wait....

Iron Budokan · 03-20-10, 10:23 AM

I must say I have absolutely no patience for the constant (and intellectually dishonest) rationale that the Battle of the Atlantic was over in '43.

How many tons of Allied shipping was sunk from '43 on? How many Allied sailors were drowned? How many U-boat crews were destroyed? I'm sure someone has these statistics at their fingertips.

Tell the dead men who died that this battle was "over" after '43.

Spin it how you like. This rationale simply doesn't hold water in the face of historical fact.

ReallyDedPoet · 03-20-10, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iron Budokan

How many tons of Allied shipping was sunk from '43 on? How many Allied sailors were drowned? How many U-boat crews were destroyed? I'm sure someone has these statistics at their fingertips.

Ships hit by U-boats in WWII

Ship losses by month

Click on the month to see list of all ships hit that month.
Each page has a map showing where the ships were attacked.

1939

Sep (53)Oct (37)Nov (30)Dec (47)167 ships hit in 1939.
1940

Jan (58)Feb (54)Mar (26)Apr (11)May (17)Jun (67)Jul (43)Aug (66)Sep (63)Oct (73)Nov (36)Dec (50)564 ships hit in 1940.
1941

Jan (15)Feb (47)Mar (50)Apr (48)May (66)Jun (65)Jul (21)Aug (32)Sep (60)Oct (51)Nov (17)Dec (28)500 ships hit in 1941.
1942

Jan (66)Feb (82)Mar (99)Apr (89)May (146)Jun (145)Jul (108)Aug (131)Sep (116)Oct (121)Nov (142)Dec (76)1321 ships hit in 1942.
1943

Jan (49)Feb (88)Mar (131)Apr (57)May (49)Jun (27)Jul (59)Aug (30)Sep (25)Oct (31)Nov (16)Dec (17)579 ships hit in 1943.
1944

Jan (20)Feb (28)Mar (22)Apr (12)May (17)Jun (22)Jul (27)Aug (37)Sep (15)Oct (10)Nov (11)Dec (25)246 ships hit in 1944.
1945

Jan (24)Feb (24)Mar (21)Apr (23)May (6)Jul (1)99 ships hit in 1945.

Note: The figures include all ships hit (sunk, damaged, captured etc.).

From uboat.net

SteamWake · 03-20-10, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by reallydedpoet

Ships hit by U-boats in WWII

Ship losses by month

Click on the month to see list of all ships hit that month.
Each page has a map showing where the ships were attacked.

1939

Sep (53)Oct (37)Nov (30)Dec (47)167 ships hit in 1939.
1940

Jan (58)Feb (54)Mar (26)Apr (11)May (17)Jun (67)Jul (43)Aug (66)Sep (63)Oct (73)Nov (36)Dec (50)564 ships hit in 1940.
1941

Jan (15)Feb (47)Mar (50)Apr (48)May (66)Jun (65)Jul (21)Aug (32)Sep (60)Oct (51)Nov (17)Dec (28)500 ships hit in 1941.
1942

Jan (66)Feb (82)Mar (99)Apr (89)May (146)Jun (145)Jul (108)Aug (131)Sep (116)Oct (121)Nov (142)Dec (76)1321 ships hit in 1942.
1943

Jan (49)Feb (88)Mar (131)Apr (57)May (49)Jun (27)Jul (59)Aug (30)Sep (25)Oct (31)Nov (16)Dec (17)579 ships hit in 1943.
1944

Jan (20)Feb (28)Mar (22)Apr (12)May (17)Jun (22)Jul (27)Aug (37)Sep (15)Oct (10)Nov (11)Dec (25)246 ships hit in 1944.
1945

Jan (24)Feb (24)Mar (21)Apr (23)May (6)Jul (1)99 ships hit in 1945.

Note: The figures include all ships hit (sunk, damaged, captured etc.).

From uboat.net

Got one for uboats sunk for comparison?

CCIP · 03-20-10, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Got one for uboats sunk for comparison?

1939
57 U-boats were capable of going out to sea when the war began in September 1939. When the year ended 9 of them had been lost.

1940
24 boats were lost in 1940. U-31 was actually sunk twice so she appears twice in that number.

1941
35 boats were lost during 1941.

1942
The U-boat fleet lost 86 boats during this year, most of them in the latter half the year. A sign of things to come ...

1943
With the biggest convoy battles of the war and the highest number of boats at sea, stakes were high. In May 1943 the biggest loss to befall the U-boat fleet came with loss of 41 boats. Overall losses in 1943 were 243 U-boats.

1944
This year was even worse than 1943, steady losses all year brought the total up to 250 boats when the year came to and end.

1945
With the war coming to an end, overwhelming allied forced all around them, Germany lost over 120 U-boats in action in the first 5 months of the year.

Source:
http://uboat.net/fates/losses/

03-19-10, 09:07 PM	#18
janh Stinking drunk in Trinidad Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 349 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	This discussion seems familiar... Didn't we have it already several times? Did someone just miss to post in the right thread or is it just about optimizing the discussion to perfection? I wonder... __________________ Scientific facts are not determined by the opinion of the majority, nor by a democratic vote.

03-19-10, 09:24 PM	#20
Yak Torpedoman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Here, sometimes there Posts: 113 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	That argument doesn't really hold up though, because Type VII's were in use in 1944 and 1945. SH5 has already clearly demonstrated two things: One they're not too fussed about specific variants of type VII and have a hybrid design with features from all, plus you have the ability to upgrade your boat, so theoretically it wouldn't have been hard for them to slot in the basic upgrades of a 44/45 Type VII over the 1942/43 versions. __________________ It all started with a goat, a golf club and a pack of Marlboro Red's...

03-20-10, 12:03 AM	#22
SabreHawk Captain Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Seattle, Wa. USA Posts: 530 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 0	Why end it in 43' ? because it was over for the Uboat arm by 43', after that they Type VII's rein was at an end, and so few further designs after it saw service they aren't worth doing. They all but a few were hunted own and sunk or captured. Essentially, the war was really over for them at that point. __________________ "Chance favors the prepared mind"

03-20-10, 07:25 AM	#23
irish1958 Ocean Warrior Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Carmel, Indiana Posts: 3,250 Downloads: 320 Uploads: 11	SH5 is called "The Battle of the Atlantic," and this was over in April-May of 1943. Earlier in 1943, the U-Boats had unprecedented success with overwhelming losses for the Allies in March and April. These losses finally got Adm. King's attention and an all-out Allied war on the U-Boats ensued with massive losses to the U-Boats. As a result, Adm. Donitz recalled all U-Boats from the Atlantic and they never again attacked the convoys, but were limited to defensive action and attacks in the waters near England. The Battle of the Atlantic was over. __________________ Irish1958

03-20-10, 10:23 AM	#27
Iron Budokan Sea Lord Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Texas Posts: 1,778 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I must say I have absolutely no patience for the constant (and intellectually dishonest) rationale that the Battle of the Atlantic was over in '43. How many tons of Allied shipping was sunk from '43 on? How many Allied sailors were drowned? How many U-boat crews were destroyed? I'm sure someone has these statistics at their fingertips. Tell the dead men who died that this battle was "over" after '43. Spin it how you like. This rationale simply doesn't hold water in the face of historical fact. __________________ "You will take on England wherever you find her ships, and you will break her power at sea." --Iron Coffins, Herbert A. Werner http://kennethmarkhoover.com

03-19-10, 08:57 PM	#16
Noren 中国水兵 Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 284 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	But SH5 has pictures for major and minor victory, aswell as a draw.

03-19-10, 09:05 PM	#17
Barso Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thanks, do you recommend SH4 with uboat xpac or stick with SH5? I know SH5 has only been born but do you think the modders will stick with it?

03-20-10, 10:17 AM	#25
Barso Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Thanks, would it be possible to mod the capaign to extend it or am I going to have to wait until ubisoft see's how much profit SH5 made and if it's worth making DLC for it?