Navy Captain Assaults Crew

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

Sounds like she is a prime example of being promoted based on genitalia and not merit, which finally caught up with her since she showed her true colors.

That's BS

This is just a case of a person (gender independent) who was unfit for command. It could as easily been a guy and there have been guys removed for this very same issue. Would you say they were promoted for their genitalia?

Don't make this in to a sexism case unless you have some actual evidence that her sex was a major factor in this.

Sorry for the soapbox, but I have served with, and continue to work with some very professional women in the military.

This was just a bad individual.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Platapus

That's BS

This is just a case of a person (gender independent) who was unfit for command. It could as easily been a guy and there have been guys removed for this very same issue. Would you say they were promoted for their genitalia?

Don't make this in to a sexism case unless you have some actual evidence that her sex was a major factor in this.

Sorry for the soapbox, but I have served with, and continue to work with some very professional women in the military.

This was just a bad individual.

+1 and thank you.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

USS Cowpen ??? How fitting.

Actually reminds me of an old shift inspector I was once saddled with. What a bastid, always pulling people up for not having polished boots, a crease or two in their tunic, not having full equipment on view.....you know, the stuff that was really important for fighting crime (not).

This guy would give you the most mundane tasks as a punishment, like standing by a stolen vehicle until the recovery truck arrived, chasing up unpaid parking fixed penalty tickets, point duty at faulty traffic lights and crap like that.

One day he found himself in a bar fight and radioed for urgent assistance and it was truly amazing how many of the shift had poor signal reception, or were broken down (temporarily) or stuck in heavy traffic conditions.

he had seven kinds of sh!te kicked out of him...he never returned to active duty.

The irony being he got his pension before anyone else

[Bubblehead Nuke]

I have read about this CO all over the net and I think she is being singled out unfairly.

She swears. And? She is a SAILOR. Sailors swear. If they do not they are lying. She says she uses foul language to intentionally pressurize a situation. I for one AGREE with her usage. She was the CO on a COMBAT ship, not a cruise ship. Combat is STRESSFUL. There is an old saying Train Hard, Fight easy.

She intimidated her crew by yelling at them. And? She is the CAPTAIN. Is she supposed to comfort them and make them feel good because they can not do their jobs? No, She jumps them and let them know that they have messed up. People DIE because you mess up.

She intimidated her department heads by tell them to not bring their problems to her and yelled at them. And?? Well, she is the CO. She EXPECTS those who have been promoted to a position to take a leadership role and DO THEIR JOBS. In todays Navy you can not easily fire someone. You have a choice. You MAKE them do their jobs or you do it FOR them. I applaud her making them do what they are supposed to. They make decisions. If they make the wrong one the lets them know. What are they gonna do when the command structure is DEAD due to a missile hit? Call Washington for advice?

She had a race with her ship? SO? It take TWO ships to have a race. Why isn't the OTHER CO in hot water? Have you heard anything about that ships CO? On this topic, if you are foolish enough to think that this sort of stuff does NOT happen you are a fool. Sailors take PRIDE in their ships, boats, targets. They WANT bragging rights. You dang RIGHT they had a drag race. I can bet you this happens ALL the time. I know that if you knew what we did with our sub at odd times you would think that we wee irresponsible as well. We did it to have FUN and to have a bragging right.

It is SO easy to armchair quarterback this story and make sexist remarks. When MALE CO's do it they are showing Command Ability. When a woman does it she is a Bly?

Bah.. PC military...What a bunch of *****'* they have now. They are more fearful of being called out being mean/overbearing/sexist and not making Admiral, General, or whatever than they are of not doing their JOBS. I am fearful for my son that is deploying to Afghanistan soon. I just hope his CO, squad leaders, etc made him ready for combat instead of being an 'ambassador'.

[ETR3(SS)]

I agree with you. Sailors swear, they race their boats etc. Both the CO's I had on my boat yelled at us when we screwed up. But NEITHER of them got physically violent to any crew member. THAT is where she screwed up.

Bah.. PC military...What a bunch of *****'* they have now. They are more fearful of being called out being mean/overbearing/sexist and not making Admiral, General, or whatever than they are of not doing their JOBS.

This is the problem of our military today, couldn't have said it better. This is why a Muslim Army Major can shoot up a base in Texas even though he showed signs that he shouldn't be anywhere near an Army base.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

I have read about this CO all over the net and I think she is being singled out unfairly.

She swears. And? She is a SAILOR. Sailors swear. If they do not they are lying. She says she uses foul language to intentionally pressurize a situation. I for one AGREE with her usage. She was the CO on a COMBAT ship, not a cruise ship. Combat is STRESSFUL. There is an old saying Train Hard, Fight easy.

I find it amazing you just swallow her pathetic defense whole. It reeks of the 1930s era Imperial Japanese military (and probably other cases) where they beat the subordinate for minor perceived errors and then claim it is all for their own good...

The correct method to achieve appropriate pressurization is by realistic drilling and high standards, not the excessive insertion of swear words or yelling. That just makes you look out of control and lowers your own prestige.

She intimidated her crew by yelling at them. And? She is the CAPTAIN. Is she supposed to comfort them and make them feel good because they can not do their jobs? No, She jumps them and let them know that they have messed up. People DIE because you mess up.
She intimidated her department heads by tell them to not bring their problems to her and yelled at them. And?? Well, she is the CO. She EXPECTS those who have been promoted to a position to take a leadership role and DO THEIR JOBS. In todays Navy you can not easily fire someone. You have a choice. You MAKE them do their jobs or you do it FOR them. I applaud her making them do what they are supposed to. They make decisions. If they make the wrong one the lets them know. What are they gonna do when the command structure is DEAD due to a missile hit? Call Washington for advice?

I find it amazing that you just assume that all her officers and crew are dumbasses, on THREE ships (she had a XO tour, a destroyer command and a captain's command and got the same comments from all 3 groups), and she is correct.

Of course, one can never know the whole story. However, since apparently at least some of her crews got very high marks on inspection (probably a reason why she lasted so long), it suggests her crew probably ain't dumbasses and probably didn't deserve quite that much flak. Which leaves her.

As the CO, guaranteeing the completion of the preparation of her department heads for their responsibilities, and then guaranteeing the start of their preparation for higher ones, is her job. She can (and must) delegate some of the execution to the XO, more senior department heads and the CPOs, but some of which she has to do personally, and we all know delegation doesn't mean transferring the responsibility.

Also, while of course any superior wants their subordinate leaders to work independently, there will always be times when they need guidance or support, when they need to "upchannel". If you are a routine centralizer or control freak, there would likely be more of these times. The day they don't is probably the one they are sitting in your chair.

Both of these should be expected, and calmly treated as part of the job, not some extra burden to be pushed off by random yelling.

She had a race with her ship? SO? It take TWO ships to have a race. Why isn't the OTHER CO in hot water? Have you heard anything about that ships CO? On this topic, if you are foolish enough to think that this sort of stuff does NOT happen you are a fool. Sailors take PRIDE in their ships, boats, targets. They WANT bragging rights. You dang RIGHT they had a drag race. I can bet you this happens ALL the time. I know that if you knew what we did with our sub at odd times you would think that we wee irresponsible as well. We did it to have FUN and to have a bragging right.

Yes, and you also know should anything happen, all the immature acts your ship conducted in the name of "fun" will likely be held against you.

Anyway, as I understand it, people object not so much to the drag race, but the way she maneuvered in the drag race. That's probably why the other CO doesn't seem to be in so much hot water. It also does not help that her opponent was IIRC a destroyer or frigate. Thus, the other commander can use the "senior officer" clause as a shield.

In any case, from the commentary on the blogs, if the goal is to raise spirit or any such crap, it didn't work, which makes it a pure dumb maneuver.

It is SO easy to armchair quarterback this story and make sexist remarks. When MALE CO's do it they are showing Command Ability. When a woman does it she is a Bly?

In fact, the accusations are all the opposite, more on the side that she lasted so long because nobody wants to look unPC and fire this Captain Bligh (actually, Bligh is too nice for her because as I understand it, Bligh was competent, and apparently this Graf wasn't).

Besides, even if it is true that this command style might have been tolerated had she been a male, well, then that's the reality that any woman aspiring to command has to adjust to.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I find it amazing you just swallow her pathetic defense whole. It reeks of the 1930s era Imperial Japanese military (and probably other cases) where they beat the subordinate for minor perceived errors and then claim it is all for their own good...

The correct method to achieve appropriate pressurization is by realistic drilling and high standards, not the excessive insertion of swear words or yelling. That just makes you look out of control and lowers your own prestige.

Realistic. Like in people shooting at you? Things going to hell in a hand basket and you suddenly have to think on your feet. The enemy not doing what the script said they were supposed to do??

You will NEVER have realistic drilling. All you can have is a close approximation. Even then you KNOW that it is just a drill. You KNOW that with a simple 'Secure the drill' it is over.

Setting High Standards are a nice PC thing to say. Really touchy feely and great thing to write. The trick is that you have to hold people to those standards. Otherwise you get the "Well, I was not trained to handle this so I am going to do nothing instead." mentality.

Sometimes you have to jack up the stress levels other ways. Do I condone striking someone? No. Do I condone putting the fear of god in them? Yes.

Some of the most memorable training I ever had was to be embarrassed beyond belief and having it pointed out to my shipmates in colorful language. I guarantee you that I NEVER messed up again on that issue.
My boat nickname 'Mercury Joe' came out of one of those sessions. I used that name to my advantage later on, but that is another story. I STILL use my nickname YEARS later to keep me humble and sharp.

I find it amazing that you just assume that all her officers and crew are dumbasses, on THREE ships (she had a XO tour, a destroyer command and a captain's command and got the same comments from all 3 groups), and she is correct.

I never made an assumption as to the aptitude of the crew. I always assume that the crew is competent within the guidelines of their ratings. Granted, that might be stretching it for the surface force as I was a bubblehead. I DO know that sailors tend to bitch. When a crew is NOT bitching then I would be worried.

How many people SUPPORT her and are not saying a thing? Geesh, I would have thought you understood media bias by now. Not to mention the old sailors saying: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

Of course, one can never know the whole story. However, since apparently at least some of her crews got very high marks on inspection (probably a reason why she lasted so long), it suggests her crew probably ain't dumbasses and probably didn't deserve quite that much flak. Which leaves her.

A crew is only as good as its leadership. You have a lousy leader, you have piss poor inspections. That is a FACT and not an opinion.
[quote]

As the CO, guaranteeing the completion of the preparation of her department heads for their responsibilities, and then guaranteeing the start of their preparation for higher ones, is her job. She can (and must) delegate some of the execution to the XO, more senior department heads and the CPOs, but some of which she has to do personally, and we all know delegation doesn't mean transferring the responsibility.
[/qoute]

Again, we are only hearing half of the story.

A good department head will depend on their chiefs. A good chief will know what he is doing. If he is not good, then you go to the leading first. A department head will have SEVERAL department chiefs to assist them. I cannot belive that they are ALL bad. If the department heads have a problem with ALL the chiefs then the problem lies with that department head.

Also, while of course any superior wants their subordinate leaders to work independently, there will always be times when they need guidance or support, when they need to "upchannel". If you are a routine centralizer or control freak, there would likely be more of these times. The day they don't is probably the one they are sitting in your chair.

Both of these should be expected, and calmly treated as part of the job, not some extra burden to be pushed off by random yelling.

Was it random? Or was it to make people think about what their job is and act accordingly.

She got her command, did these others who complained about her? Or did they dead end at a desk?

Yes, and you also know should anything happen, all the immature acts your ship conducted in the name of "fun" will likely be held against you.

Never did I say that my Capt did something reckless or immature. If something bad happened then it would have been held against him. He knew that. He also understood the need and importance of pride in one boat. Both CO's I had did things differently, one gave a crap about his crew and I would go back tommorrow if he called me and said we needed to go. The other is currently Navsea08, and I would listen to him and them wish him a good day and walk off without regret.

Anyway, as I understand it, people object not so much to the drag race, but the way she maneuvered in the drag race. That's probably why the other CO doesn't seem to be in so much hot water. It also does not help that her opponent was IIRC a destroyer or frigate. Thus, the other commander can use the "senior officer" clause as a shield.

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. If something had happened then BOTH Commanders would have been held accoutable. A CO is responsable for the safe operation of thier command. Period.

In any case, from the commentary on the blogs, if the goal is to raise spirit or any such crap, it didn't work, which makes it a pure dumb maneuver.

In fact, the accusations are all the opposite, more on the side that she lasted so long because nobody wants to look unPC and fire this Captain Bligh (actually, Bligh is too nice for her because as I understand it, Bligh was competent, and apparently this Graf wasn't).

Besides, even if it is true that this command style might have been tolerated had she been a male, well, then that's the reality that any woman aspiring to command has to adjust to.

What?? A double standard? Why should She have to adjust to it when a male can get away with it?

They want females in combat, then they had better be ready for a ball breaking b*tch.

I would not respect a CO that was all 'lets be friends' with me. I would want to see someone who I KNEW would be there right beside me when it got bad. I would want to know that my shipmate would listen to them and do as ordered becuase MY life could well be on the line, and if the other person decide that today, they did not have to give 100%, then myself and OTHERS may die.

I know that I would want someone who would TELL me when I messed up. If that meant tearing my head off, then so be it. I would rather be yelled at for something small than go 'Oops, I did realize that would happen' after I failed to do my job.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead Nuke

Realistic. Like in people shooting at you?

Random usage of swear words is not going to simulate this.

Things going to hell in a hand basket and you suddenly have to think on your feet.

This can be simulated to some extent in training, and does not require screaming. In fact, a officer that resorts to such makes one wonder about his ability to remain stable in the more stressful environment of actual combat.

The enemy not doing what the script said they were supposed to do??

This, at least can be simulated.

You will NEVER have realistic drilling. All you can have is a close approximation. Even then you KNOW that it is just a drill. You KNOW that with a simple 'Secure the drill' it is over.

True, but how does screaming help? If one needs them to get used to loud noises (explosions), then playing back tape recordings of explosions and other combat noises at high volumes would seem to replicate the real thing somewhat better.

Sometimes you have to jack up the stress levels other ways. Do I condone striking someone? No. Do I condone putting the fear of god in them? Yes.

If you advocate using crude screaming tactics to "put the fear of god" into someone, by logical extension striking (not to the point it causes serious injury) is OK. They serve the same ends and operate under the same theories.

By the way, did you hear the part where this Graf threw objects, culminating of course in the choke? I thought you didn't condone getting physical?

Besides, it would seem that this officer's swearing extends beyond the exercises. Even if we accept that this rather weakly substantiated premise that swearing in an exercise may be beneficial to simulate "combat stress", how does this extend to other periods.

Further, any supposed advantages have to be weighed against the loss of prestige. Which is one of the reasons we have NCOs - if there is any advantage to be gained by screaming, they do the bulk of it and leave the prestige of the officers intact.

Finally, do remember that this is her excuse AFTER she has been relieved. It is like the guy being charged of rape saying "She seduced me". It may even be true, but one must remember the circumstances before just swallowing it at face value.

Some of the most memorable training I ever had was to be embarrassed beyond belief and having it pointed out to my shipmates in colorful language. I guarantee you that I NEVER messed up again on that issue.
My boat nickname 'Mercury Joe' came out of one of those sessions. I used that name to my advantage later on, but that is another story. I STILL use my nickname YEARS later to keep me humble and sharp.

The same logic can be applied to beatings. Pain of the physical sort can also be a great teacher, even though modern pedagogics is highly skeptical of it. Same with humiliation tactics.

A final nail in the coffin, as far as Graf was concerned, was the low opinion (based on blog comments) her crew have on her technical and tactical abilities. Even if we assume they are completely unsubstantiated, to be unable to clear them so consistently says much of Graf's talents as a Captain, and the mere perception makes the humiliation less tolerable. It is one thing if you are humiliated but have to admit the other guy knows his sh*t and has a point in this case, quite another if you perceive her as a politically promoted hack.

I never made an assumption as to the aptitude of the crew. I always assume that the crew is competent within the guidelines of their ratings. Granted, that might be stretching it for the surface force as I was a bubblehead. I DO know that sailors tend to bitch. When a crew is NOT bitching then I would be worried.

How many people SUPPORT her and are not saying a thing? Geesh, I would have thought you understood media bias by now. Not to mention the old sailors saying: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story"

I also understand that the average sailor wants to have pride in his ship and his leadership. If there are any redeeming technical, tactical, pedagogic, management ... etc qualities in this Captain, I find it hard to believe not one tried to come to her defense. Yet every shipmate I see on the blogs seems to be going for the combined arms smash.

(Actually, there were a few guys who did try, but they seem to be fellow staffers in the Pentagon. Regardless of political motives, not one shipmate seemed to have done the same.)

A crew is only as good as its leadership. You have a lousy leader, you have piss poor inspections. That is a FACT and not an opinion.

Yes, but whose the leader (read: it ain't always the guy at the top) that really deserves the credit?

Again, we are only hearing half of the story.

A good department head will depend on their chiefs. A good chief will know what he is doing. If he is not good, then you go to the leading first. A department head will have SEVERAL department chiefs to assist them. I cannot belive that they are ALL bad. If the department heads have a problem with ALL the chiefs then the problem lies with that department head.

What makes you think the chiefs are bad? Why are you so determined to insist that everyone else but Captain Graf must have a problem?

She got her command, did these others who complained about her? Or did they dead end at a desk?

Why do you find it so hard to accept the possibility that her selection was a MISTAKE? It does happen, you know.

Never did I say that my Capt did something reckless or immature.

The idea of linking un-necessary danger to "pride" is generally considered a reckless and immature act, though it is fairly common in the military.

Breaking the rules is breaking the rules. If something had happened then BOTH Commanders would have been held accoutable. A CO is responsable for the safe operation of thier command. Period.

Officially, the Navy's position on the whole race thing is to apparently not pursue it, which takes the legal aspect out. On the moral aspect, let's not pretend that the average officer does not bend to the "suggestion" of their seniors, and this is probably understood by most. We are lucky if they back out shortly before things go from grey to black.

Further, things would probably have been safe had it stayed a straight line race (perhaps that's what the destroyer captain was banking on), but apparently Graf tried to do a block. A further factor here, again, is everyone's low opinion of Graf's shiphandling competence. It is possible that if they thought Graf was the best shiphandler ever made everyone will consider the move safe and been relaxed, but that clearly wasn't the case.

What?? A double standard? Why should She have to adjust to it when a male can get away with it?

They want females in combat, then they had better be ready for a ball breaking b*tch.

First, this is a side point in comparison to the point that most are saying if anything it is the inverse. If a male had been like her, he'll be ruled out of line long ago. I suppose the qualitative description of her crimes ain't too bad by Navy standards, but clearly there's a magnitude problem here, which cannot be expessed easily just on a page.

But for your question, try this more extreme variant: Given that it can be determined that current crews cannot accept any kind of female Captain, then the Navy should not have them, on practical grounds.

Would you agree or disagree? Similar thing here.

[August]

My take on this is that a good officer should not need to swear or shout in order to maintain control over his subordinates. If a butt chewing is required it should be done by an NCO.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by August

My take on this is that a good officer should not need to swear or shout in order to maintain control over his subordinates. If a butt chewing is required it should be done by an NCO.

Butt chewins is what NCOs do the bestest.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by August

My take on this is that a good officer should not need to swear or shout in order to maintain control over his subordinates. If a butt chewing is required it should be done by an NCO.

Precisely...more than one way to get the message across without resorting to physical abuse.

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Kazuaki Shimazaki II,

Never did I say that she was not in the wrong. Never did I say that she is blameless. I have stated that there can be two very valid sides to this situation. It could be that BOTH sides are at fault. Just like parenting, commanding has different methods and aspects. You may not agree with how it is done, but that does not make it wrong.

I stand by my 'I do not condone physical violence.' Why do you feel the need to try and twist things to make it seem that I do?

I could go point for point and quote for quote for a long long time. Frankly, I have better things to do. I was just looking to point out that there are other ways to look at this situation.

But for your question, try this more extreme variant: Given that it can be determined that current crews cannot accept any kind of female Captain, then the Navy should not have them, on practical grounds.

I feel that a female can be as good or as bad a commander as any male. Their command ability will be a combination of their innate skill, the training they had, and the environment that they advanced in.

I do have a question, have you served? or are you an armchair quarterback?

[krashkart]

Originally Posted by August

My take on this is that a good officer should not need to swear or shout in order to maintain control over his subordinates. If a butt chewing is required it should be done by an NCO.

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Precisely...more than one way to get the message across without resorting to physical abuse.

I've thought a bit on this since my last post in here, read some more perspectives from other members, and I've clarified my own view enough to say that the captain was out of line.

I'd have to agree with August and Jim on this one (and Platapus' post directly below). And given that she threw objects at other people, even if it was paper, she exhibited disrespect toward her subords. How can anyone respect that kind of behavior out of a superior?

[Platapus]

Some of the more basic "officer rules":

In order to command others, one must first be in command of thyself.
In order to control others, one must first be in control of thyself
In order to lead others, one must first be able to lead thyself

It did not seem like this officer was in command of herself.
It did not seem like this officer was in control of herself.
It did not seem like this officer was able to lead herself.

She doesn't belong on a combatant. Period!

Women don't belong in harms way.
They are something special, to be protected.

The protection of one's women and children is the reason men go to war.

If women are being sent to the front lines, what the hell are the men fighting to protect?

Perhaps some wimpy politician that would send his sister into a street brawl to protect his interests?

Sorry PC people. I grew up in a world where one NEVER hits girls or women.
They are NOT men. The are women. The are different. They are special. And they are preciouse.

(This view has always been shared by all the women in my family, who greatly outnumber the men.)

Why would a woman want to act like a man?
Why would a man want to act like a woman?
Strange world the PC people are creating.