DD not responding to attacks? - Page 2

walsh2509 · 03-03-10, 04:10 PM

ASDIC comprised a transducer housed in a dome beneath the ship that sent out a narrow beam of sound in a series of pulses that would reflect back from a submerged object within a maximum range of about 3,000 yards (2,700 m). The dome was open to the sea and was to ensure the water around the transducer was relatively still as fast moving water would destroy any signal. The echo produced an accurate range and bearing to the target. But differences in the temperatures at different depths could create false echoes, as could currents, eddies and schools of fish, so ASDIC needed experienced operators to be effective. ASDIC was only effective at low speeds. Above 15 knots (28 km/h) or so, the noise of the ship going through the water drowned out the echoes.

The early wartime Royal Navy procedure was to sweep the ASDIC in an arc from one side of the ship's course to the other, stopping the transducer every few degrees to send out a signal. Several ships searching together would be used in a line, a mile or a mile and a half apart. If an echo was detected, and if the operator identified it as a submarine, the ship would be pointed towards the target and would close at a moderate speed, the submarine's range and bearing would be plotted over time to determine course and speed as the ship closed to within 1,000 yards (910 m).

Once it was decided to attack the ship would close more rapidly, using the target's course and speed data to adjust the course. The intention was for the ship to pass a little way ahead of the submarine, then depth charges would be rolled from chutes in the stern at even intervals and depth-charge throwers would fire further charges some forty meters out on either side. The intention was to lay a depth charge 'pattern' like an elongated diamond, hopefully with the submarine somewhere inside the pattern. But to effectively disable a submarine a depth charge would have to explode within about six meters, in depth as well as in plane. Since early ASDIC equipment was poor on determining depth it was usual to vary the depth settings on part of the pattern.

There were disadvantages to the early versions of this system. Exercises in anti-submarine warfare had been restricted to one or two destroyers hunting a single submarine whose starting position was known in daylight and calm weather, rather than stormy conditions. German U-boats could dive far deeper than British or American submarines, to well below the deepest setting on the British depth charges (A dive depth of over 700 feet (210 m) against a maximum depth charge setting of 350 feet).

More importantly, early ASDIC sets could not look directly down, so the operator lost 'sight' of the U-Boat during the final stages of the attack, a time when the submarine would certainly be manoeuvring rapidly. The explosion of a depth-charge also disturbed the water so that ASDIC contact was very difficult to regain if the first attack had failed.

Ducimus · 03-03-10, 04:11 PM

Heh, i wonder if the DD's have proper sonar, hydrophone nodes. That would do alot to break things. SH5 used Sh4 as a base. In SH4, not all ships had ALL the proper nodes assigned to them.

edit:
another item might be thermal layer effects being carried over from SH4. Check the sim.cfg and make sure they're aren't any. If those variables are high enough, you become invisible underwater for all intents and purposes.

AVGWarhawk · 03-03-10, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

yeah. I've not looked into it too deep, but the "levels" look to be identical. And the vast majority of everything in early game is rookie.

Just what I thought. SH4 was the same I believe when fresh out of the box. Ducimus is very familiar with SH4 workings and nodes as he notes. DD will needs some help then.

sergei · 03-03-10, 04:20 PM

I have been a little concerned about the enemy AI too.
My watch crew seem a little bit myopic. They only see aircraft at about 3000 meters at the moment (may be something to do with morale or experience? dunno yet). By the time I order a crash dive the planes are pretty much flying right over me.
But - this is the thing.
The aircraft never seem to actually spot me, even though the nearest pass was about 400 meters.
Tried a single mission attacking a convoy. Instead of attacking I decided to get noticed and see how easy it was to evade.
Flank speed to the convoy until I got a visual.
Then ran at flank speed at periscope depth at the nearest DD.
Circled around at flank speed till I got the attention of 3 of 'em.
Admittedly is was ****ty weather.
But still.
There was three of 'em. I evaded them pretty easily.

Couple of things spring to mind.

1. I have played SH3 and SH4 extensively so I am conversant in sub evasion techniques.
This may have helped me out here.

2. I remember in STOCK SH3 and SH4 the escorts being a bit of a pushover.
I suspect that this is more the case here.

sergei · 03-03-10, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Heh, i wonder if the DD's have proper sonar, hydrophone nodes. That would do alot to break things. SH5 used Sh4 as a base. In SH4, not all ships had ALL the proper nodes assigned to them.

edit:
another item might be thermal layer effects being carried over from SH4. Check the sim.cfg and make sure they're aren't any. If those variables are high enough, you become invisible underwater for all intents and purposes.

Good point, I'll have a look.
Looking at the folder and file structure of the game, it seems like a lot of stuff has been recycled from SH4, which in turn had a lot of stuff recycled from SH3. (I remember making a Soviet Office mod for SH4, and whilst I was looking for office textures, finding all the graphics for the SH3 office!)
It could well be that I easily evaded those 3 destroyers because of the thermal layer attenuation. I'll have a look.

AVGWarhawk · 03-03-10, 04:31 PM

Well the DD are pushovers in vanilla because as a new comer who wants DD that sink your butt all the time? NO fun in that. Sinking ship, shooting down aircraft and going head to head with a DD is fun....if you can win most of the time. SH4 DD were quite unresponsive....until Ducimus screwed with them and a few others that made them diabolical

Ducimus · 03-03-10, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Well the DD are pushovers in vanilla because as a new comer who wants DD that sink your butt all the time? NO fun in that. Sinking ship, shooting down aircraft and going head to head with a DD is fun....if you can win most of the time. SH4 DD were quite unresponsive....until Ducimus screwed with them and a few others that made them diabolical

I have no idea what your talking about.

Honestly though, If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

CCIP · 03-03-10, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I have no idea what your talking about.

Honestly though, If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

I agree, don't "waste" your efforts on it quite yet. I think right now the focus for modders should just be basic stuff like quick tweaks and easily-transferable graphics files. Everything else should wait until the devs clean it up a bit.

AVGWarhawk · 03-03-10, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I have no idea what your talking about.

Honestly though, If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

Oh absolutely....SH4 has more Ducimus massaging needed.

Will always be my favorite! CCIP is correct.

Jimbuna · 03-03-10, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I have no idea what your talking about.

Honestly though, If i do one mod for this title, I wouldn't mind doing this with K guns instead of Y guns. I could achieve a much better pattern.

However, i have to finish next update to TMO first, ive been procrastinting too long, and this game needs more patching.

Looking forward to your work/efforts....now how much was that wager for again?

danurve · 03-03-10, 04:55 PM

I would tend to agree as well.
Also, since I've never played SHIV and it can be purchased through here for about 10 clams, I might just give the fleet boats and TMO a spin.

AVGWarhawk · 03-03-10, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danurve

I would tend to agree as well.
Also, since I've never played SHIV and it can be purchased through here for about 10 clams, I might just give the fleet boats and TMO a spin.

Ducimus · 03-03-10, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Looking forward to your work/efforts....now how much was that wager for again?

Ahhh.... uhhh.... ehhh..Well, if i do any work for this game, it will be in single modlets. Probably just one thing, maybe two. TMO is still my priority at the moment.

Seriously though, i want to be a player, like everyone else. I worked on SH4 since its launch, and ive only one career game under my belt with 4 patrols. I' havent PLAYED in what feels like years. Id like to play too, may as well be SH5 even thoguh i prefer fleet boats. Sh4 is ruined for me by virtue of knowing too much under the hood. If i do the same thing here, i may as well quit sub sims all together.

Jimbuna · 03-03-10, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Ahhh.... uhhh.... ehhh..Well, if i do any work for this game, it will be in single modlets. Probably just one thing, maybe two. TMO is still my priority at the moment.

Seriously though, i want to be a player, like everyone else. I worked on SH4 since its launch, and ive only one career game under my belt with 4 patrols. I' havent PLAYED in what feels like years. Id like to play too, may as well be SH5 even thoguh i prefer fleet boats. Sh4 is ruined for me by virtue of knowing too much under the hood. If i do the same thing here, i may as well quit sub sims all together.

No problem, I'm simply yanking yer chain

And I do promise not to repeat the challenging statement as much as you have in the past.

~SALUTE~

Edit: I suppose it's now safe to set the team to work on GWX5-Atlantic Wolves

Ducimus · 03-03-10, 05:29 PM

It will be interesting to see what mods develop. I might do one or two things, but for the most part i think ill sit this one out with a bag of peanuts or popcorn. Let someone else bust their ass for a change. If you ever need any popcorn passed your way, just ask, ill make enough for both of us.

03-03-10, 04:31 PM	#21
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,293 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Well the DD are pushovers in vanilla because as a new comer who wants DD that sink your butt all the time? NO fun in that. Sinking ship, shooting down aircraft and going head to head with a DD is fun....if you can win most of the time. SH4 DD were quite unresponsive....until Ducimus screwed with them and a few others that made them diabolical __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

03-03-10, 04:55 PM	#26
danurve The Old Man Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Syracuse, NY Posts: 1,481 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 3	I would tend to agree as well. Also, since I've never played SHIV and it can be purchased through here for about 10 clams, I might just give the fleet boats and TMO a spin. __________________

03-03-10, 04:10 PM	#16
walsh2509 XO Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 410 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	ASDIC comprised a transducer housed in a dome beneath the ship that sent out a narrow beam of sound in a series of pulses that would reflect back from a submerged object within a maximum range of about 3,000 yards (2,700 m). The dome was open to the sea and was to ensure the water around the transducer was relatively still as fast moving water would destroy any signal. The echo produced an accurate range and bearing to the target. But differences in the temperatures at different depths could create false echoes, as could currents, eddies and schools of fish, so ASDIC needed experienced operators to be effective. ASDIC was only effective at low speeds. Above 15 knots (28 km/h) or so, the noise of the ship going through the water drowned out the echoes. The early wartime Royal Navy procedure was to sweep the ASDIC in an arc from one side of the ship's course to the other, stopping the transducer every few degrees to send out a signal. Several ships searching together would be used in a line, a mile or a mile and a half apart. If an echo was detected, and if the operator identified it as a submarine, the ship would be pointed towards the target and would close at a moderate speed, the submarine's range and bearing would be plotted over time to determine course and speed as the ship closed to within 1,000 yards (910 m). Once it was decided to attack the ship would close more rapidly, using the target's course and speed data to adjust the course. The intention was for the ship to pass a little way ahead of the submarine, then depth charges would be rolled from chutes in the stern at even intervals and depth-charge throwers would fire further charges some forty meters out on either side. The intention was to lay a depth charge 'pattern' like an elongated diamond, hopefully with the submarine somewhere inside the pattern. But to effectively disable a submarine a depth charge would have to explode within about six meters, in depth as well as in plane. Since early ASDIC equipment was poor on determining depth it was usual to vary the depth settings on part of the pattern. There were disadvantages to the early versions of this system. Exercises in anti-submarine warfare had been restricted to one or two destroyers hunting a single submarine whose starting position was known in daylight and calm weather, rather than stormy conditions. German U-boats could dive far deeper than British or American submarines, to well below the deepest setting on the British depth charges (A dive depth of over 700 feet (210 m) against a maximum depth charge setting of 350 feet). More importantly, early ASDIC sets could not look directly down, so the operator lost 'sight' of the U-Boat during the final stages of the attack, a time when the submarine would certainly be manoeuvring rapidly. The explosion of a depth-charge also disturbed the water so that ASDIC contact was very difficult to regain if the first attack had failed.

03-03-10, 04:11 PM	#17
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	Heh, i wonder if the DD's have proper sonar, hydrophone nodes. That would do alot to break things. SH5 used Sh4 as a base. In SH4, not all ships had ALL the proper nodes assigned to them. edit: another item might be thermal layer effects being carried over from SH4. Check the sim.cfg and make sure they're aren't any. If those variables are high enough, you become invisible underwater for all intents and purposes.

03-03-10, 04:20 PM	#19
sergei Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: London UK Posts: 1,788 Downloads: 405 Uploads: 29	I have been a little concerned about the enemy AI too. My watch crew seem a little bit myopic. They only see aircraft at about 3000 meters at the moment (may be something to do with morale or experience? dunno yet). By the time I order a crash dive the planes are pretty much flying right over me. But - this is the thing. The aircraft never seem to actually spot me, even though the nearest pass was about 400 meters. Tried a single mission attacking a convoy. Instead of attacking I decided to get noticed and see how easy it was to evade. Flank speed to the convoy until I got a visual. Then ran at flank speed at periscope depth at the nearest DD. Circled around at flank speed till I got the attention of 3 of 'em. Admittedly is was ****ty weather. But still. There was three of 'em. I evaded them pretty easily. Couple of things spring to mind. 1. I have played SH3 and SH4 extensively so I am conversant in sub evasion techniques. This may have helped me out here. 2. I remember in STOCK SH3 and SH4 the escorts being a bit of a pushover. I suspect that this is more the case here.

03-03-10, 05:29 PM	#30
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	It will be interesting to see what mods develop. I might do one or two things, but for the most part i think ill sit this one out with a bag of peanuts or popcorn. Let someone else bust their ass for a change. If you ever need any popcorn passed your way, just ask, ill make enough for both of us.