Penny Arcade!

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Alright, so let's try changing the name of DRM, as it's become a bit of a negative phrase and sometimes changing the name allows people to see things in a new way, so here goes... Let's instead refer to it as 'Fairy Dust'

[frenema]

I don't understand how some people still automatically conclude that: 700,000 piracy = 700,000 games unsold. That's like saying ID requirement for alcohol purchase will automatically lead to all or even most teenagers to wait until legal age (yeah right...).

I'm not saying that piracy is not causing any problems at all, because it is apparent from the game stores I visit where the PC games went from filling half of the store to being pushed off by console games and hiding in a small corner. So yes, PC companies are feeling desperate and they're implementing their new protection system in hopes of getting people to gradually accept the new DRM as the norm. So even if Ubisoft loses many customers for their initial games with the new OSP, but enough people eventually come to accept it as being 'normal', then Ubisoft recuperate their profits. But only time will tell if this works or not and whether people will give in or not. I for one refuse to submit to such fascist c**p.

[Nordmann]

Originally Posted by MasterCaine

We have become a society of sheep, and sheep can easily be herded.

Sadly this is all too true. People are only too willing to accept more and more restrictions in their lives, more laws, more enforcement measures. It's an ongoing process of gradual oppression, of which most appear oblivious. It's the age old case of bread and circuses, keep the unwashed masses amused, so they do not focus on their lack of freedom. But watch out, say anything against this system and you're in for a brow beating.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Nordmann

Sadly this is all too true. People are only too willing to accept more and more restrictions in their lives, more laws, more enforcement measures. It's an ongoing process of gradual oppression, of which most appear oblivious. It's the age old case of bread and circuses, keep the unwashed masses amused, so they do not focus on their lack of freedom. But watch out, say anything against this system and you're in for a brow beating.

Reminds me of a poignant quote from Desmond Tutu:

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.

Not implying a comparison to SH5 mind you, but still thought provoking nonetheless...

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Méo

IF I plan to resell it, I will create a new e-mail address with new password, log with it and then write all this on a piece of paper and put it in my SH5 box.

ABout 10 years ago I sold my 486 and, to make the deal more interesting for my buyer, I also threw in my games. Nothing fancy, just:

- entire Comanche 1 series
- Wing Commander 4
- Flight Unlimited 1
- F15 Strike Eagle 3....


Since then, I vowed never to sell another game. For example, I still have my Age of Conan Collector's edition box even though I haven't played it after the first month (almost 2 years ago). But I guess a lot of people resell their games so here's an advice if you want to protect your "not sure how legal" right to resell.

Every time you buy an OSP game, make a new Ubi.com account AND a new mail account. For example, Meo, make a MeoSH5 account for SH5 and a MeoAC2 account for Assassin's Creed 2. That's because you'll not be able to log into 2 different games with one account at the same time.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by JScones

Reminds me of a poignant quote from Desmond Tutu:

Not implying a comparison to SH5 mind you, but still thought provoking nonetheless...

Similarly this quote by Thomas Jefferson:

All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Nisgeis

Hmmm, there was the one case of one particular game having a sales rate of ten to one consoles to PC, but that was a rarity. Can you post some links to one of the multiple studies that have shown console sales drop dramatically? I'm not trying to call you out or anything, I just would like to read up about it. The averaage piracy world rate of 38% doesn't seem that high, but if there are certain games that are pirated at a rate of 1000%, then that means that it's a minorty of games that are accounting for that 38% figure and the rest of the market really isn't at risk of piracy at all. Anyway, I'd be interested in those study reports.

Well lets start with some figures, I'll dig up the rest when I have some time and am not sick (have the flu atm).

http://forum.pcvsconsole.com/viewthread.php?tid=15831

US Console & Handheld Game Software Sales
1998 - $3.7 billion
1999 - $4.2 billion
2000 - $4.1 billion (130.6 million units)
2001 - $4.6 billion (141.5 million units)
2002 - $5.5 billion (162.8 million units)
2003 - $5.8 billion (186.4 million units)
2004 - $6.2 billion (203 million units)
2005 - $6.1 billion (190.5 million units)
2006 - $6.5 billion

US PC Game Software Sales
1998 - $1.8 billion
1999 - $1.9 billion
2000 - $1.78 billion (84.9 million units)
2001 - $1.75 billion (83.6 million units)
2002 - $1.4 billion (61.5 million units)
2003 - $1.2 billion (52.8 million units)
2004 - $1.1 billion (47 million units)
2005 - $953 million (38 million units)
2006 - $970 million

That's a pretty giant drop in software sales for pc in the US, 2006 made half as much as 1999. It isn't explained by people switching to consoles, there are still far more gaming capable pc's then there are consoles.

Anyhow the companies certainly have noticed that sales of their console games drop down quite a bit if they release a pc version at the same time (and no the pc sales don't go up). This is precisely why they delay the pc release for 3-6 months. The logic is pretty simple, if its available to be pirated on pc, fewer people are going to buy it (and console sales will suffer too).

For further reading Neal posted a link to a pretty good examination of the effect piracy is having on the industry. I don't agree with everything in it but most of it is accurate by my knowledge.
PC Game Piracy Examined

Anyhow, my point is its always wrong to pirate stuff, it is stealing no matter how one tries to excuse it. If you don't like the DRM, don't buy or pirate the game. I personally never buy steam games, or anything else that will limit my ability to play the game when I want, far into the future.

[Dowly]

@Neon

Those figures cant be just because of piracy, Xbox360 games are as much pirated as PC games.

Also, does that count all console sales? As in Wii, xbox360 and PS3 games combined? That would skew the figures a lot.

[Méo]

Originally Posted by karamazovnew

Every time you buy an OSP game, make a new Ubi.com account AND a new mail account. For example, Meo, make a MeoSH5 account for SH5 and a MeoAC2 account for Assassin's Creed 2. That's because you'll not be able to log into 2 different games with one account at the same time.

Yeah, but that's why I said IF I plan to resell it.

Anyway, how much could I resell a 50$ game to a friend. And how much could I resell an already used 50$ computer game on the net with shipping fee... ...maybe few bucks... but it's no drama for me.

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Méo

Yeah, but that's why I said IF I plan to resell it.

Anyway, how much could I resell a 50$ game to a friend. And how much could I resell an already used 50$ computer game on the net with shipping fee... ...maybe few bucks... but it's no drama for me.

True... and as long as Ubi doesn't force you to use the same account for all its games, I don't see how OSP can prevent reselling. And I can't find a reason to only make one account. All games will have a login screen with automatic account/password entires. The downside might appear in the future when games will have linked content or friends will try to reach you Steam-style. I'm sorry they didn't find a way to link their OSP to Steam as an option. I've just gotten used to Steam. Demos and game manuals (which are better than demos) are enough to make it worth the space.

btw, I forgot to add Red Alert 1 to that list of lost games

[BarjackU977]

I happened to wonder what influence has marketing over people behaviour, and piracy.

Around games, there is marketing. Ads in magazines, on websites, on some TV channels.
Goal: let you know about the game first, and second, also tempt you. Create new "needs".

This questions is quite "out of topic", sorry for that. But It came to my mind as I've read this topic (reading about house robbery, for which there is no marketing).
Marketing is logical from a sales perspective. What I wonder is if piracy raises following the same curve as sales thanks to marketing, or if it follows another curve.
A question that will remain for sure unanswered.

Footnote: this question doesn't intent to put any doubt on the fact that piracy is illegal, bad for the industry and for customers.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Dowly

@Neon

Those figures cant be just because of piracy, Xbox360 games are as much pirated as PC games.

No they are not pirated anywhere near as much due to the fact that you have to physically modify your xbox360 (or any other console) by soldering on a "mod" chip onto its main board to be able to play pirated (copied) games. At best maybe 5% of users have mod chips. This significantly limits how many pirate copies are downloaded (most figures put console piracy at around 5%-10% then the rate of PC piracy)

From that article Neal found (The data is just from one torrent site)
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html

Fallout 3 (released Oct. 30 2008):

PC Version:

Fallout 3-RELOADED--cgaurav™-- - 75,152
Fallout 3 Full-Rip Skullptura - 72,987
Fallout 3-RELOADED.[sitenameremoved.org] - 48,926
Fallout 3 [PC] - 45,130
Fallout.3-RELOADED.[sitenameremoved.com] - 12,226
Fallout 3-RELOADED [Full ISO/RPG/2008] - 12,110
FALLOUT 3-TRiViUM - 5,032


I counted almost 90 individual torrents for the full PC version of Fallout 3. The small sample listed above adds up to 271,563 downloads in a one month period.

XBox 360 Version:

Fallout 3 USA XBOX360-RUiNS - 6,649
Fallout 3 READNFO XBOX360-Seed4ME - 5,612
Fallout 3 PAL XBOX360-GLoBAL - 4,220
Fallout 3 GERMAN-0x0007 - 2,336
Fallout 3 USA PROPER RETAIL XBOX360-x360inT - 1,171


I counted around 30 individual torrents for the XBox 360 version of Fallout 3. The sample listed above adds up to 19,988 downloads in a one month period.

PS3 Version:

I couldn't find any Fallout 3 torrents which were labelled as or appeared to be for the PS3.


Call of Duty 4 (released Nov. 6 2007):

PC Version:

Call of duty 4 [PC-DVD] [English] 3876100 TPB - 205,277
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare Full-Rip Skullptura - 111,310
Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warfare [English][PCDVD] - 96,082
Call Of Duty 4 [PCFullGame][Eng-DvD][CrackIncl] KaYZ 2008 - 43,805
Call Of Duty 4-Razor1911 - 40,839
Call Of Duty 4-Razor1911 [sitenameremoved.com] - 21,456
Call Of Duty 4 - 18,295
++sitenameremoved com++-Call of Duty 4 DVD Modern Warfare - 17,212
Call of Duty(R) 4 - Modern Warfare - 12,300


I counted over 100 active torrents for the PC version of this game, a year after its release. The sample listed above adds up to 566,000 downloads in a one year period.

XBox 360 Version:

XBOX 360 Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warface [PAL] - 12,231
Call Of Duty 4 PAL FR XBOX360-PROPER - 11,758
[Xbox360-ITA]Call Of Duty 4- Modern Warfare - 9,702
Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warfare PAL FRENCH XBOX 360 - 9,277
Call Of Duty 4 Modern Warface PAL XBOX360-GAC[sitenameremoved.org] - 7,182
Call of Duty 4 [PAL - Spanish - XBOX360] - 5,194
Call Of Duty 4 ENG XBOX360 - 3,513


There were around 20 XBox 360 torrents for this game, and the sample listed above adds up to 58,857 downloads.

PS3 Version:

Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX - 24,185
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare PAL PS3-MRN () - 9,484
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare PAL PS3-MRN - 6,876
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX[sitenameremoved.net] - 5,382
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX[sitenameremoved.org] - 3,683
Call of Duty 4 Modern Warfare USA PS3-PARADOX[sitenameremoved.org] - 3,065


There were only 6 PS3-labelled torrents for this game, and I've listed all of them above, adding up to 52,657 downloads over the past year.

Then there is the call of duty: MW2 case. quoted from that article again.
http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_4.html

For 2009, the most pirated PC game as reported in this article was Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2. The PC version had a staggering 4.1 million downloads via torrents alone compared with an estimated 200,000 - 300,000 actual sales via retail and Steam, demonstrating that the most popular game of 2009 was also the most pirated, and more importantly, that the actual number of downloads for the most popular game is now almost three times as high as in 2008, signalling the rampant growth of piracy. It is also interesting to note that while COD:MW2 sold around 300,000 copies on PC and had 4.1 million pirated downloads, the console version sold in excess of 6 million copies during the same period according to this article, and yet had a fraction of the number of pirated downloads at around 970,000.

Then there is the "world of goo" case which is reporting 90% piracy rates (by comparing number of unique IP addresses connecting to the leader board vs number of copies sold). Its a real original and very good game that sells for 20$.
http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/55906

I was going to reference a BSA study but in the end I decided not to as I consider their offered data far to flawed to do so, particularly in the amount of money they consider lost sales; they like to equate every single instance of piracy as being a lost sale at a 1:1 ratio which is beyond absurd, especially in poor countries. They also like to make other claims which also don't make much sense logically, and they are obviously heavily biased given they are the legal arm of the games industry.

Originally Posted by Dowly

Also, does that count all console sales? As in Wii, xbox360 and PS3 games combined? That would skew the figures a lot.

Yes that figure is all console games reguardless of type, it is a comparison of sales figures from pc (which have dropped by half) to console (which have doubled). Not sure why it skews the figures though.

Originally Posted by BarjackU977

I happened to wonder what influence has marketing over people behaviour, and piracy.

Around games, there is marketing. Ads in magazines, on websites, on some TV channels.
Goal: let you know about the game first, and second, also tempt you. Create new "needs".

This questions is quite "out of topic", sorry for that. But It came to my mind as I've read this topic (reading about house robbery, for which there is no marketing).
Marketing is logical from a sales perspective. What I wonder is if piracy raises following the same curve as sales thanks to marketing, or if it follows another curve.
A question that will remain for sure unanswered.

It is certainly possible that heavy duty advertising is driving up piracy rates by instilling a need for the person to posses the game (look at the COD:MW2 example above, that was a heavily marketed game). They may decide to pirate the game because they can't afford to get it but yet they must have it. This may then cause a slippery slope effect which leads to the person switching over entirely to piracy (why buy when I can just steal it and spend my money on other things).

You can certainly see the effect of mass advertising and hyping products just by walking along the street and seeing all the crap people have which they don't really need, yet are going broke over it to have it. But that is another topic.

[karamazovnew]

It would be nice to see the proportion in each country. You might find that most piracy occurs in countries where people don't actually consider buying consoles. Even more, I'd like to point out that since the major public sites have gone down, private torrent groups are the main method of downloading. One rule is that you need to have a ratio of upload, or you risk loosing membership. You wouldn't believe how many people with P4 and 512 MB RAM download new games just to increase their ratio to be able to continue downloading porn on blue-ray formats .

[Bilge_Rat]

Originally Posted by HundertzehnGustav

Then you will pay for a whole lot of "other people".
I still dont need that cop right there.

Down with it.
The more i see talk about it, the more i feel like kicking the dead horse or some stupd beancounter donkey in th butt.

This is my PC. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

I saw the movie. He shoots his drill sergeant and blows his head off........Is it because Ubi added Uplay to their games?.....






and to put all the Hysteria about DRM in perspective, how about this oldie but goodie...

Steam's DRM is the kind of DRM that open source advocates have nightmares about. It takes a technical stance that is firmly in favour of copyright holders. While this may be good for drumming up business, it also highlights some of Steam's and DRM's biggest flaws.

First of all, there is no allowance made for playing offline. If you don't have an internet connection then you can't play your game, even if it's a single player game that doesn't neccessarily need an internet connection. That is, until Valve decides to make a version of Steam that will work without a network connection.

http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/9/13/03945/7308

or this:

http://www.petitiononline.com/nosteam/petition.html

[Task Force]

In the end, Unless the game company gives you a mysterous man in a black suit and tie with eatch each game download/CD piracy is still gonna happen... to a degree...