Dubai Hamas killing pledge by UK foreign secretary

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

@Skybird

Well, but declaring the Israelis to be victims only isn't correct either. I'm pretty sure that France would be pretty pi$$ed too if Germany would start building settlements on their soil. How long do you think would they condone that before a few Le clercs and Rafales would "help" the settlers to de construct their houses again? I think both sides are constantly pouring gas into the fire down there.

On parts of the settlements issue you are right. However, the palestinians already could have had an agreement and treaty with Israel - SINCE MANY YEARS. they screwed up, because they wanted all, and thought that all Arab states' support would be theirs.

I never hid that I hold no special feelings for Israel, I do not defend it'S right for self-existence due to sympathy or because I think as a german I should do so, or any other of this sentimental stuff. I pragmatically do it because the foundign of Israel is more than two generations ago. you can't reverse the time without doing a comparable ammount of injustice AGAIN, but this time to the Israelis. Israeli state shouldn't not be there, but it is, and since long, and now we have to deal with it. Cancelling it's founding is no option.

Maybe that is no the kind of sympathetic lip confession diplomacy is so fond of, but it is a solid reason why I support Israel in real, not just by lip confession. You can reverse a state founding when it is 2 or 3 years ago - not 60 years.

Whether I think that Israel can strategically survive in the long term, is another thing. Nor do I tzhinbk foundign the state iof Israel in that place should have been done. Strategically, it was foolish. But for the time being I see no moral alternative to supporting it. And despite it's obvious flaws and problems with Jewish extremists, it still is a hundred times a more sane and reasonable place than any of it's neighbours in the region.

Originally Posted by Skybird

On parts of the settlements issue you are right. However, the palestinians already could have had an agreement and treaty with Israel - SINCE MANY YEARS. they screwed up, because they wanted all, and thought that all Arab states' support would be theirs.

Do you mean the proposal for a Palestinian state offered to Arafat in Camp David summit? I've had this discussion before with someone else, it seems that the pro-Israel camp will forever claim that the deal in question was a really good deal from the POV of the Palestinians and all problems are due to them not signing that deal. The Palestinians claim that it was infact a bad deal they did not want to sign.

I guess Palestinians don't have the luxury to not sign papers offered to them by the US and Israel. Kind of takes away the whole point of signing things, doesn't it?

Whether I think that Israel can strategically survive in the long term, is another thing. Nor do I tzhinbk foundign the state iof Israel in that place should have been done. Strategically, it was foolish. But for the time being I see no moral alternative to supporting it. And despite it's obvious flaws and problems with Jewish extremists, it still is a hundred times a more sane and reasonable place than any of it's neighbours in the region.

Egyptians and Jordanians would be happy to hear that, after all the concessions they've made and crap they've had to take from Israel.

[Oberon]

Israel, I perceive, militarily wise, as being somewhat akin to Finland in that it has been attacked on several occasions by forces outnumbering its own and then not only beaten off the attack but then gone on the offensive itself.
One should not underestimate them, and should definitely respect them.

I do not agree with all their movements, some of their tactics towards Palestine I find distasteful, as well as their assistance to Apartheid South Africa in acquiring nuclear devices however Israel is a nation which really shouldn't exist. It's been surrounded by mortal enemies since day one and yet some sixty-two years later, it's still going and still going strong.

Originally Posted by Oberon

Israel, I perceive, militarily wise, as being somewhat akin to Finland in that it has been attacked on several occasions by forces outnumbering its own and then not only beaten off the attack but then gone on the offensive itself.
One should not underestimate them, and should definitely respect them.

I do not agree with all their movements, some of their tactics towards Palestine I find distasteful, as well as their assistance to Apartheid South Africa in acquiring nuclear devices however Israel is a nation which really shouldn't exist. It's been surrounded by mortal enemies since day one and yet some sixty-two years later, it's still going and still going strong.

The relations between the UK and Israel have never really been particularily warm. This is partly due to the times when Palestine was governed by the British and the Jewish terrorists started killing off the British servicemen. They did snuff off quite a few, actually.

The idea of Israel being a kind of plucky, heroic nation that has 'earned' it's right to exist through military power is in some ways worrying. I don't think political problems should be solved in the battle field but rather through negotiations. The wars that Israel have won should be looked as parts of the cold war and it's proxy wars, not really as something that serves to give any kind of just agreement and settlement into the area.

But I am aware of this idea of Israel as the 'underdog' country, although I don't think it is an accurate description of the situation in the area, but I do have to say that I do resent the comparison of Finland and Israel.

[NeonSamurai]

Kind of hard to sit at the diplomatic table and negotiate peace when you are being invaded isn't it? Last I checked other then when Israel was formed, it didn't fire the first shot in any of these conflicts.

I honestly can't imagine any other western country being as controlled as Israel often is, given what happens there. Would the US, UK, Finland, or anywhere else sit around on its hands while its civilian centers (cities and towns) are being hit by mortar and rocket attacks by terrorist groups hiding in another country, a country which quietly condones and supports those attacks? I don't think so...

Sky is right, this is part of the new form of anti-semitism. Our societies think its perfectly alright to expect and demand that Israel and the Jews sit there and take what we never would in a second.

This doesn't mean Israel is a perfect country, and everything it does is good and just. But no country can hope to claim that.

One should also be wary of what they see and read..
is the perfect example of that.

Being invaded and driven away from your ancestral living area, you mean, like the Jewish terrorists did to the Arabs living in British controlled Palestine? Yes, it was difficult for them to negotiate. Btw, many of these people are still alive, having lived their lives in the refugee camps which have become a kind of permanent fixture, as has Gaza, one of the most tightly populated areas in the world.

There's actually a lot of stuff you never hear about. The everyday goings on at an average controlling post in Israel is some pretty third world stuff. The Israeli military treats people badly, beats them or even shoots them with very little or no repercussions. This is all normal and goes on day after day. The walls and the watch towers and of course the extreme Israelis who have been allowed to burrow into the West bank and build settlements with absolutely no attempt being made to hand the West bank back as was agreed according to the treaties.

I would also say that being pro-Israel you're actually in the minority in Canada.

A big deal is made of "pallywood", as if a kid born in the refugee camps and who lives there would need some tv-show to hate the Israelis.

[NeonSamurai]

I had started writing a reply then I realized why bother, its not worth the time to smash apart the imaginary little world you live in.