The gawd-almighty merged DRM in Silent Hunter V thread

[Ships-R-Us]

Originally Posted by 609_Avatar
This just in... http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100216/...broadband_data

By JOELLE TESSLER, AP Technology Writer Joelle Tessler, Ap Technology Writer – 57 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Roughly 40 percent of Americans do not have high-speed Internet access at home, according to new Commerce Department figures that underscore the challenges facing policymakers who are trying to bring affordable broadband connections to everyone.

Originally Posted by Webster

but UBI refuses to see the truth because as this shows, a simple data search (hint to UBI executives, try using google) it would show their customers arent able to use the system they propose.

This arguement holds no merit. The slowest dialup connection will play SH5 just as well as the fastest T1 or broadband connection. Appears from all I've observed those acustomed to playing pirate complain about DRM because it may rip the patch and sabre from them. Even when playing the legal SH5 they will blame DRM for their system crashes when in fact they have never performed proper computer maintenance on their system.

Neal posted a letter from a developer earlier today that sums it all up better than any post I have read on this forum. I include an excerpt below as I believe it was overlooked by the whiners and complainers, THEREFORE WORTHY OF REPOSTING.

I have followed the posts of many here and it is pretty easy to spot the profile of the pirates taking the liberty to complain in this holy of holy forum.

I am so hot that I may start several threads to get Michaels quote in front of as many members as possible in hopes the glaze will vanish from some members eyes.

I know my level of awareness and understanding was increeased as I read Michaels letter. You have all seen the trend and the success of many developers hinging on the switch to console gaming.

Please read Michaels quote referencing the PC, Hardware and software configs many of you are playing with. Some here running such a config should feel ashamed lest you complain about any games performance.

QUOTE FROM NEAL:
No, the piracy excuse is not bull, it's real. Study after study shows huge numbers of people playing games without buying them. There was one article by a small game developer, he said that when they released a patch for their game, it was downloaded 80,000 times in the first few weeks. But they had only sold something like 15,000 copies of the game. Piracy is wide-spread. I was on break between classes today, two of my classmates were watching Avatar
Get used to the idea that game developers will be moving to the Xbox and PS3 consoles, they are not going to invest millions into games and only a few people actually pay for them.
Small game developers like Michael Fitch are leaving the industry. Can't say I blame them.

Michaels Quote:

Enough about piracy. Let's talk about hardware vendors. Trying to make a game for PC is a freaking nightmare, and these guys make it harder all the time. Integrated video chips; integrated audio. These were two of our biggest headaches. Not only does this crap make people think - and wrongly - that they have a gaming-capable PC when they don't, the drive to get the cheapest components inevitably means you've got hardware out there with little or no driver support, marginal adherence to standards, and sometimes bizarre conflicts with other hardware.
And it just keeps getting worse. CD/DVD drives with bad firmware, video cards that look like they should be a step-up from a previous generation, but actually aren't, drivers that need to be constantly updated, separate rendering paths for optimizing on different chips, oh my god. Put together consumers who want the cheapest equipment possible with the best performance, manufacturers who don't give a **** what happens to their equipment once they ship it, and assemblers who need to work their margins everywhere possible, and you get a lot of ****ty hardware out there, in innumerable configurations that you can't possibly test against. But, it's always the game's fault when something doesn't work.
Even if you get over the hump on hardware compatibility - and god knows, the hardware vendors are constantly making it worse - if you can, you still need to deal with software conflicts. There are a lot of apps running on people's machines that they're not even aware of, or have become such a part of the computer they don't even think of them as being apps anymore. IM that's always on; peer-to-peer clients running in the background; not to mention the various adware and malware crap that people pick up doing things they really shouldn't. Trying to run a CPU and memory heavy app in that environment is a nightmare. But, again, it's always the game's fault if it doesn't work.

Which brings me to the audience. There's a lot of stupid people out there. Now, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of very savvy people out there, too, and there were some great folks in the TQ community who helped us out a lot. But, there's a lot of stupid people. Basic, basic stuff, like updating your drivers, or de-fragging your hard drive, or having antivirus so your machine isn't a teetering pile of rogue programs. PC folks want to have the freedom to do whatever the hell they want with their machines, and god help them they will do it; more power to them, really. But god forbid something that they've done - or failed to do - creates a problem with your game. There are few better examples of the "it can't possibly be my fault" culture in the west than gaming forums.

[Frederf]

Merged threads can be a pain to follow. You may or may not be aware that if you set the posts-per-page to the maximum this thread is but a mere 32 pages. Then again you are on dial-up

[Onkel Neal]

I wouldn't take the effort to merge except they are talking about the same thing in several threads. Same discussion.

[martes86]

Originally Posted by Ships-R-Us

[...] Appears from all I've observed those acustomed to playing pirate complain about DRM because it may rip the patch and sabre from them. Even when playing the legal SH5 they will blame DRM for their system crashes when in fact they have never performed proper computer maintenance on their system.
[...]
I have followed the posts of many here and it is pretty easy to spot the profile of the pirates taking the liberty to complain in this holy of holy forum.

First of all, the colour of your post hurts my eyes, so I'll make the quote in regular black font. (an absurd choice of colour BTW, I don't understand the need to make the whole posts shine like that)

Second, pirates couldn't care less about DRM. It won't affect them! Someone will crack SH5, and they'll be none the wiser. On the other hand, it's we legit users who complain, because it's us that the system will bother, not the pirates. And if it bothers the pirates, what good does that to us? We'll still be screwed by it, having paid for ALL the SH games that have been coming out.
And that goes for me, my flotilla buddies, or anyone around here sensible enough to not pirate a game that already has a low level of budget and sales, and that needs strong support in order to survive. You really think that real subsimmers want to screw their sims because of a few bucks? You may think I'm just being naive, but I really think that, those that matter, don't pirate the SH games, that piracy comes only from casual gamers who couldn't give a crap about what happens to the game, or the development studio.

[Seafireliv]

Yea the stupid glowing green annoyed me too. So much so, i just skipped his whole post. i guess if he thought it would get his post read, well it backfired.

[onelifecrisis]

Regarding the merged threads, it's not like there isn't an announcement stating...

Hey, where did that announcement go?

@Letum

I think your attempt to show my analogy to be broken was pretty weak, as evidenced in part by your repeated use of the word "arguably". You seem to be saying that a person's lot in life, the "hand they are dealt", is not related to their money-earning potential, which is laughable IMO but if you really believe it then I'm not going to "argue" it with you. Allow me to put my analogy aside and rephrase: life isn't fair, and it's not Ubisoft's job to make it fair.

Your assertion that gamers should be trusted is also problematic. On the one hand piracy is proof that most gamers can't be trusted. On the other hand, with regards to the "principle" you say you have, I wonder whether you have ever signed a mobile phone contract? Taken a loan? Or a mortgage? They all require credit checks and unless I'm mistaken such a check would violate this principle of yours. Do you plan to forgo home ownership entirely until a bank comes along who will simply accept your word when you say you're good for the money?

Yes, OSP is Ubisoft saying that I'm guilty until proven innocent. Yes, I'm okay with that for two reasons: 1) statistically speaking I am guilty and 2) OSP theoretically provides a transparent, hassle-free way for me to prove my innocence.

Furthermore, as I've said before I'm not going to buy the game until I'm reasonably sure that it has no bugs and the servers work well. I don't see me having to prove my innocence to Ubisoft as being very different from Ubisoft having to prove their competence to me. Neither of us trusts the other, but if both of us can find a way to work around that lack of trust and if both of us benefit from the arrangement (they get my cash, I get to play SH5 without too many bugs) then where is the problem? Where is your problem with that?

[Méo]

@onelifecrisis

Very good points.

But I think that most of people here only see what they want to see.

[TarJak]

Good points indeed, however for me the proof on innocence is not the issue. My issue is paying for something that I then do not have the freedom to enjoy whenever I want. When I go on a trip somewhere that does not have access to the internet, I would be prevented from enjoying the fruits of my wallet.

That is a dealbreaker for me. If the game looks good enough and the servers reliable enough and the game hits the bargain bins before they remove OSP, then I'll consider buying the game at about AU$10. This is the price point where the hassle of not enjoying the game when and where I want is outweighed by the low cost of the purchase.

Because new games start at AU$90 and upwards, (IIRC SH4 was AU$99 at EB on release), I'd feel ripped off if I then went on a trip and could not take my laptop and legal copy of the game with me to enjoy during my down time.

And yes I travel quite a bit for work making this an issue for me.

It amy be fine for those to do bugger all but play online 24/7 but for me the model is broken.

[badkarma]

Originally Posted by Ships-R-Us

No, the piracy excuse is not bull, it's real. Study after study shows huge numbers of people playing games without buying them. There was one article by a small game developer, he said that when they released a patch for their game, it was downloaded 80,000 times in the first few weeks. But they had only sold something like 15,000 copies of the game. Piracy is wide-spread.

The problem with these figures is that they leave out a VITAL piece of information, as do all these studies.
How many of those 80,000 pirated it INSTEAD of buying it?
And that's the nub of the whole "DRM hassles the legitimate customer" arguement.

As far as piracy being rife, yup without a doubt it is.
However the maths of X pirated copies + Y purchased copies = total sales if piracy was totally impossible is so off base.

Companies who use this type of intrusive DRM need to look more closely.

Ok, so 80,000 people are playing it for free - which is annoying for sure. But how many of these pirates were going to buy it, but grabbed a copy instead?
I'm no pirate (the last time I copied a game it involved connecting 2 tape recorders together!), but there are a ton of games I'd play if they were free.
However at £30 a go, I'm VERY selective. I'll ponder what's there, play demos and be very very picky. If games were all free, I'd fill my hard drive to bursting with anything that even piqued a vague interest.

So now we've got some reality kicking in, what are the real numbers of LOST SALES, not just pirated downloads?

Now add to this, how many people with a moral compass not set in stone, who aren't currently pirates, are going to be tempted when they see that the pirated copy of the game can be played when they like (when their net connection is down, on their 2 hour train journey, on their non-net connected gaming PC) whereas the legitimate purchasers are treated like permanant criminals and can only play when Uncle UBI says so?

And lets remember, people with pirated games aren't PC geniuses anymore. Anyone that can type in google and download a torrent app can do it. These aren't elite circles of hackers anymore who share it amongst themselves. The ONLY thing stopping ANYONE from using a pirated copy is their own moral stance.
So how much sense does it make to take those moral few, and treat them like criminals and restrict their use of a game when the pirates can play it the way they'd like to, ie without connections, accounts, passwords, etc??

DRM might make them feel better, feel like they're not just giving up, but I suspect the harsh reality of it is that when you remove the false assumption that every pirate was previously going to purchase, and pushing those who are morally on the fence into taking the pirated copy because it actually works the way they need it to, the outcome is no different to if they'd released it with a key code.

[onelifecrisis]

badkarma, the quote in this post answers your question nicely I think.

[badkarma]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

badkarma, the quote in this post answers your question nicely I think.

It's an interesting article for sure, and sad that the developer is now gone, but it still doesn't answer anything as far as I can see.

He pulls 10% as a figure of "pirates to sales" for them to have doubled their sales, but that 10% is an arbitrary guess, as much as 100% is.
What if it's 0.2%, is it worth ****ing off all your legitimate customers and losing some of them to piracy to convert the pirates to sales?

And as much as I'm likely to get flack for this, he says that part of their copy-protection was to dump the user out mid-game. And then the complaints that the game was faulty caused them bad publicity.

So code smarter! Making a recognition of piracy that looks EXACTLY the same as a crash to desktop is madness.
Show them a huge "You filthy pirate!" sign. Lock their machine for 5 minutes, give them a link to the companies help site/email in case they are a legitimate user and need assistance.
How about you log their MAC and IP and report it back to a service and take some legal action? How many people being arrested would it take for the non-hardcore pirates to think twice that their next torrent could land them in front of a judge?

That's the whole problem with this DRM issue.
On one end of the scale is Open Source. The other end is a man from the publisher comes to your house everytime you want to play (when he's free) and sits there as you do. He then takes the game away until next time.
You need to balance ease of piracy, with interfering with your legitimate customers desire to play the game they purchased.

For me personally, permanant "phone home" DRM is way too aggressive.
And as I have a moral standing on this, I just won't buy.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by badkarma

He pulls 10% as a figure of "pirates to sales" for them to have doubled their sales, but that 10% is an arbitrary guess, as much as 100% is.
What if it's 0.2%, is it worth ****ing off all your legitimate customers and losing some of them to piracy to convert the pirates to sales?

Yes, this is the part I was referring you to. But you seem to have missed the point he was making, which is that 10% corresponds to doubled revenues. That means your 0.2% corresponds to 2% more revenue. You're right that nobody knows exact numbers on "lost sales" but his numbers show that a relatively small decrease in lost sales actually amounts to a big increase in revenues. He doesn't know how long the piece of string is, but he knows whatever length is it he can multiply it by ten and that means it doesn't have to be long at all to be significant.

Whether OSP will actually prevent piracy at all is another issue. I don't think it'll stop outright piracy at all. But it will prevent resale and it'll also prevent lending/swapping/borrowing amongst friends, so maybe those things alone will be enough to decrease those "lost sales" by a few percent (and increase revenues by ten times that amount). Time will tell.

[badkarma]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Whether OSP will actually prevent piracy at all is another issue. I don't think it'll stop outright piracy at all. But it will prevent resale and it'll also prevent lending/swapping/borrowing amongst friends, so maybe those things alone will be enough to decrease those "lost sales" by a few percent (and increase revenues by ten times that amount). Time will tell.

That's actually something I'd not considered, however that makes me even stronger on my position.
Intentionally stopping people from lending/swapping/borrowing a product they've purchased is an infringement of many countries consumer rights, and they seem to want to use that to recoup their lost revenue because they can't combat piracy...

That's worse than the punishment of legitimate customers by "you can only play when we say you can".
Now we're expected to pay for the pirates copies as well?

[Heckler]

Just found these forums... and I too was looking forward to SHV... Been a fan of the series for years and have just bought SHIII and IV from steam... after I SHIII & Race Driver 2 (retail versions) screwed up 2 DVDRW drives with that starforce crap.

I have an excellent internet connection, almost 20Mb/s with download speeds ranging from 1700-2100k/s and a good upload speed too. My connection is stable 99.9% of the time... but my ISP often does their maintenance and upgrades between 2-3am and my connection often goes down. Add to that my wireless connection sometimes drops out in the house due to the locations of my router and my gaming PC.. and the expense of having phone lines moved or network cables run around the exterior of the house.

I shall 'NOT' be buying SHV and my decision to do so is based entirely upon the inclusion of this restrictive and ridiculous DRM. Ubisoft have lost another customer, and so has any other games company who includes anything like this.

I don't mind steam games, you activate it the first time you play and then play as and when you want... no need to be online. But any game that installs subversive security checks on my machine without my permission, or tries to force me to jump through hoops and dictate how/when I am allowed to play... simply will not get my money and will seriously make me reconsider future purchases (even if drm is removed).

All this does is encourage piracy, it makes the legitimate consumer angry and annoyed and inevitably some will reconsider how/where/when they source their games. I'm not condoning it, just stating the obvious and inevitable facts.

At the moment, I'm quite happy playing SHIII & IV and now I've discovered this wonderful place... looking at adding a couple of mods to SHII

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by badkarma

Intentionally stopping people from lending/swapping/borrowing a product they've purchased is an infringement of many countries consumer rights

Which countries?