My Periscope vs SH5's Periscope

[Tomi_099]

Originally Posted by sober

@SOBER !!
ABSOLUT AMAZING !!! I LOVE IT !!!

[martes86]

Those are some good ideas. Maybe they can be carried out when SH5 comes out.

[Frederf]

Originally Posted by finchOU

you forgot to mention that having all that extra stuff can degrade night vision especially if its white light! It makes it harder to break out those are to see targets.

Very good point. Trying to strain to see on a dark night past bright white distractions on the periscope view is a pain. It actually requires more work from the developers to do all of the periscope view in both day and night versions. By making a "universal" simple periscope the developers only need make one version for all times of day. Less work!

Sober's Picture

Yes, render-to-texture where the outside view is rendered onto the eyepiece is nice. It may be not super realistic if one normally presses up tight to the eyepiece such that it consumes the full eye's view but at least it keeps the world in one piece for the player. It does take a stronger computer and a more advanced game engine to render-to-texture an outside view as well as an inside scene.

voice command

Voice control could be awesome. It's a layer above and beyond what's described here and could just as well be applied to the stock SH5 interface as my alternate "reimagined" one. It seems obvious that a game where the player is a captain of a large crew where most actions are representative of real life verbal orders that harnessing the player's voice to accomplish his tasks is the most natural. Flight sims use joysticks, racing games use wheels, surely naval captain games use a microphone?

I'd like to think of a multi-zone space that is functional practically for real torpedo targeting tasks. I'm a bit lazy to get out photoshop so I'll see what I can do in text. Imagine each box is a station and the lines between boxes show which stations are accessed from other stations. We try to construct a natural flow where each station does its task with adequate focus but there are not so many stations that the overhead of transitioning stations distracts from the job at hand.

        [REPEATER DIALS]          [TDC]
                  |                  |
                  |                  |
[EYEPIECE]---[PERISCOPE BODY]---[CONNING TOWER]---[CONTROL ROOM]
               |         |
               |         |
    [REC. MANUAL]     [PLOTTING BOARD]

[609_Avatar]

Excellent concept and exactly what I would want!!!

[karamazovnew]

Ever since we've learned that we no longer have to mod the interface in Notepad, I've been asking myself how much freedom we will have in modding SH5. Here's why... SH3 was blocked at one resolution and aspect ratio, making modding a bit easier. The position was given as relative to a parent. SH4 made things much harder due to 2 main reasons:
1: multiple resolutions which were brilliantly controlled using just 2 variables, allowing a LOT of flexibility in positioning and scaling items, but a nightmare to plan ahead.
2: German AND American interfaces: which were only possible by making the interfaces as simple as possible and loading items through an external index file. All identical items (like the backgrounds) were rewired through the image address by hardcode). Not a major pain in the ass, but still...

All in all:

1. Making new items:
____1.1: Static images: easy to do
____1.2: New buttons: impossible to do, as only the items in the Layout Page could accept commands. The only way was to make DIALS and hide the needle. Dials could indeed process commands but it was then impossible to show "pushed" status.
____1.3: Making new circular dials: extremely easy to do, but we were prevented from adding dials in all the screens.
____1.4: Making new linear dials: not so easy. The only one I know of is OLC's linear compass.
____1.5: Creating new variables: impossible

2. Rewiring hardcoded items:
____2.1: Moving a hard-coded item from one screen to another: impossible (at least in SH4)
____2.2: Changing the type of an object: impossible to do but it could be emulated
____2.3: All other changes were possible and easy: position, image

3. Hard-coded items:
____3.1: the periscopes bearing line (dial)
____3.3: the periscope depth (impossible to scale up with resolution to do the formula it used
____3.3: torpedo buttons
____3.4: stadimeter button: there was no command visible
____3.5: in SH4, the retractable panels: quite moddable as you could move them to either side and make them as big as you wanted. But there were only 2 of them for the Uboats and 3 for the Fleet boats.
____3.6: most labels (understandable because of the need for 2 languages in the interface)
____3.7: those zoomed order dials which increased by a fixed ratio
____3.8: the order bar in SH4. A bit easier to add items but I wish we had the old type of integrated orders.

The major problems in modding the interface were due to these facts:
1. most hard-coded items don't obey normal rules (that includes the hiding panels) AND those rules are never accessible because they are buried deep inside unaccessible code.
2. not all commands are visible (the stadimeter for example)
3. impossible to create new dial viariables
4. impossible to mod the key/mouse commands
5. impossible to change some camera behavior
6. impossible to create scripts.

Until we actually have a look at the SH5 interface files, and by interface I also mean the 3D one, we can't know if a clean interface is even possible. You see, just cleaning up the periscope is not enough, you need to do a LOT of changes to integrate everything nicely.

As for voice commands, a long time ago, in the SH5 page I asked about making commands compatible with voice applications.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=156171

Such parametric commands would also have a MAJOR impact on the interface itself and the way we send data to the game engine.

As a default interface, I think SH5 sports a very slick interface. I quite like it the way it is now. It already hints to a lot of possibilities and it also seems very easy to clean up fast . But I doubt that it will be possible to make a full immersive 3d interface. It all depends on mouse/keyboard and camera controls and how far we're allowed to scripts things.

[martes86]

As I recall, UI elements seemed to form the backbone of the Python coding, so I don't see why that kind of stuff couldn't be modded.

Cheers

How you fellas even know where to start with these things always amazes me and I commend you, for what is now, just your thought process. I hope you can make it a reality and this is by far the best, and most promising, thread concerning SH5 that I have read since the full details of the game were released.

Nice one Gentlemen

Maverick

[Sailor Steve]

My take:

Originally Posted by Frederf

I present to you a tasty glimpse of beautiful focus and simplicity.
Ahh, isn't that better?

Yes, it's perfect! I've rooted for something like this ever since SH2.

Sober's picture: I don't like it. At least I didn't at first, because the periscope view is small and reminds me of the one in SH2, which I hated.

But further reading has got me thinking. Most of Frederf's comments are true; none of that stuff should be in the interface. Some of it comes in handy sometimes, though, like the dialogue boxes or the ID book. I was rooting for slide-outs, like the ones that have been modded into SH3.

And then I thought again: Nothing in the periscope view. Right-click, and you're looking at Sober's view from outside the periscope, and there are all the boxes handy where you want them (or just the ones you want - removable and all that).

Actually I don't mind having some of the boxes, if I can just put them in the corners so they're there if I want them.

When the captain speaks he commands. Holding down a large, friendly key such as space bar, a semi-transparent overlay pops up giving the captain power to construct a verbal command with the clarity and immediacy that mimics real vocalization.

That is sheer genius! I love it!

[AVGWarhawk]

And so it begins! The gears are turning. The imagination is warming up. The know-how is on the table. I love seeing imaginitive minds at work....especially with SH games!

[col_Kurtz]

Yes, yes and yes... Fred. That`s right and this is a simply way with one thick at start the game, sholud be: Preffesional simulation or amateur: yes or not, if not... a lot of thick just like in the SH4, real this, real that... feul, batteries, dudes etc. Is it simply?
I`m the amateur but I think it should be free choice for the gamer and the game should be for me or for hard mariner... I don`t like mannualy recognizing. That`s right too many options icons, baloons etc... Huh... I hope it will be better than SH4... SH4 first patch, second, third... UBM and... English language on the German sub
Yeah, I know, it`s just a game, and it`s a simulation of what? Of real life and war and I want to feel it on my back and my temples, am I right? And history real history is important too!
I think they can make the game in one for casuals and for proffesionals. Just one thick
But, but... If I remember short text from one gamesite it should be possible. So I hope that video is for new players for new buyers. If yes, should be OK. I hope
The end,
sorry and thank you for your patience

[Highbury]

Excellent well thought out OP. I agree 100%

Originally Posted by Frederf

Voice control could be awesome. It's a layer above and beyond what's described here and could just as well be applied to the stock SH5 interface as my alternate "reimagined" one. It seems obvious that a game where the player is a captain of a large crew where most actions are representative of real life verbal orders that harnessing the player's voice to accomplish his tasks is the most natural. Flight sims use joysticks, racing games use wheels, surely naval captain games use a microphone?

You know, even in my racing sims I use a microphone... in rFactor there is a 3rd Part App which simulates your Team Boss/Crew Chief on the radio. He tells you lap times, how others are doing etc. The interesting thing is they also have it so I can ask questions, give input into if I want damages fixed on a pitstop, and all verbally in a game that has no voice recognition built in. You can even configure it to recognize the phrase, or phrases you want to use for a certain command. If a 3rd Party developer could create this for rFactor, there is a real possibility someone could do the same for a Kaleun at the periscope feeding speed, bearing etc to his crew!

[SeaStorm]

Very interesting thread. Keep it up.

[etheberge]

Frederf, that is one great post with a lot of fantastic ideas. I have just one point regarding the part below.

Originally Posted by Frederf

There's no such thing as this bearing readout. It's complete fiction. Bearings are read (most of the time by helper crew and not the player) off the exterior of the periscope. Gone!!

I understand that in real life there was no bearing readout when looking through the scope but I feel it might be important to keep it there as a concession to gameplay.

After all in real life you would always know the approximate bearing that you're looking at just by the position of your body relative to the sub. Unfortunately we don't have that sensory feedback when sitting in front of a computer screen.

I fear it would be easy to become disoriented when looking through the scope without the bearing readout, especially when tracking multiple targets and swiveling the scope all over the place.

Perhaps it could be left there but be made less precise? For example only leave marks for 0', 90', 180' and 270'? Then if a precise bearing is required it could be requested from the crew by a button or other means.

Other than that, I agree with almost everything you wrote and I hope we can all turn it into a reality.

[Platapus]

As I understand it, the Kaluen got the bearings from removing his eye from the eye piece and looking up. He would then verbally call out the bearing to the Officer manning the TDC who was standing sideways to the Periscope. This officer is not in a good position to look over his left shoulder and read bearings. In fact, I don't think the stationary periscope had the capability of having the bearings read from the back end (I could be wrong).

This was different from Fleet Subs where the Captain had a dancing partner at the periscope.

I really like limiting the Kaluen's actions when looking through the periscope. He should only be able to manipulate the periscope and verbally communicate with the crew. If the Kaluen needed to look at something (bearing, TDC) he had to remove his eyes from the eye piece (losing visual contact with the target by the way) and look at what needed looking at. The game should be designed to make it easy and quick for the Kaluen to take a quick peek at the bearing indicator above his head and then go back to the periscope view.

The recognition manual is a bit more tricky. I imagine that if the Kaluen was not able to visually identify the target, he would verbally describe the ship to the IWO (as in the movie The Enemy Below). It would be the IWO who would flip through the recognition manual. This can bring up interesting results if the experience of the IWO can be factored (e.i., the IWO miss-identifies the target either due to his inexperience or due to errors in what the Kaluen told him.)

Unless this communication between the Kaluen and the IWO can be simulated in the game, I am afraid the the best compromise is to have the Kaluen look at the scope and the manual at the same time.

I also like the idea of the Kaluen verbally commanding the sub. This is realism.

But for game-playing ability, there needs to be a way to simulate a Kaluen talking to one of his crew. Voice recognition would be great and it worked pretty good with Enigma Rising. If we can't have VR then we are stuck with some version of either keyboard or mouse to somehow construct a spoken sentence. This can be awkward.

This is why in past SH it seemed like the Kaluen is doing everything -- mostly because there was no good simple way to simulate spoken orders. It is acceptable for the crew to do the job for the Kaluen, but unlike the god-like weapons officer, the crew can only do their job based on the observations (with errors) made by the Kaluen.

I think some of the ideas in this thread are excellent and clearly represented a lot of good critical thought.

And I am most appreciative of the respectful participation in this thread.

[THE_MASK]

Originally Posted by Platapus

The recognition manual is a bit more tricky. I imagine that if the Kaluen was not able to visually identify the target, he would verbally describe the ship to the IWO (as in the movie The Enemy Below). It would be the IWO who would flip through the recognition manual. This can bring up interesting results if the experience of the IWO can be factored (e.i., the IWO miss-identifies the target either due to his inexperience or due to errors in what the Kaluen told him.).

or mod the rec manual so that you might have 2 or three pages of the same ship but all slightly diffrent , then you might make a mistake and tick the wrong one yourself .