Future Modding of SH3 when SH5 is released

=FI=Ghost · 01-28-10, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stoker

"There are no plans to make one, because the official release of SH5 is becoming close. When SH5 is released, it is very likely that all modders for SH3 will be asked by Ubisoft to stop supporting SH3. This is what happened to the 'Pacific Aces' team of SH2 when SH4 was released. Since Ubisoft owns the copyrights of the original games, they have every right to make this request".

If this request does indeed happen, and given all the bombshells coming out about SH5 (only VII boats,War ends 1943,DRM etc), are there any modders out there who will honour this request?. Any views?

I am not sure what international law says on copyrights and property, but in my opinion, if you have bought a game, you own it as your private property; thus, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't use it to gain financial benefits. So, I think that Ubisoft did not have a right to ask that, and modders have every right not to obey if they are asked to stop. Modding a game is a process that you do with something that you own, and sharing a mod without gaining financial profits is completely legal.

I am not really a lawyer, and I don't have to be right, but I think that's how things are..

CWorth · 01-28-10, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by =FI=Ghost

I am not sure what international law says on copyrights and property, but in my opinion, if you have bought a game, you own it as your private property; thus, you can do whatever you want with it as long as you don't use it to gain financial benefits. So, I think that Ubisoft did not have a right to ask that, and modders have every right not to obey if they are asked to stop. Modding a game is a process that you do with something that you own, and sharing a mod without gaining financial profits is completely legal. I am not really a lawyer, and I don't have to be right, but I think that's how things are..

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

=FI=Ghost · 01-28-10, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWorth

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

I see, thanx for clearing that out.

The most important thing here is that, in my opinion, SH III (and IV) will continue to live on as long as there are people like us; and so will the modding for these two.

sabretwo · 01-28-10, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWorth

Thing is that is really iffy. Legally you do not own the software you are mearly paying a license fee to use it on your own computer but Ubi still owns full rights to that program. Gaming rights and such are a very grey area in terms of laws as they have never been really placed in any position to be tried in a court of law over these kinds of issues. I really have no clue where Ubi would or would not have any say in these kinds of matters.They do legally own all rights and claims on the softwaere you are using but as to whether they can say you need to stop modding a game that has been modded from day 1 of its release I don't think they could do that honestly. Most courts in my experience would look at it like they have been allowing it all these years and now they are saying you can't do it.Simply would not fly by what I know of the law. Not a lawyer myself just going off of what I have seen and read in other law cases.

That's all true. Plus, there's another factor to consider. For such a legal action (request for injunction, lawsuit, other..) to be worth the legal expense from a business perspective, there must be a real loss to the plaintiff. In the case of mods for old games, it's impossible to quantify the potential loss in new game sales. It would be a serious waste of legal funds to chase modders around because of fear that a great modded old game will be more attractive than a new one.

The same P&L-driven mindset that decided to implement DRM would logically decide pursuing SH3/SH4 modders is purely a waste of money regardless of whether their license gives them merit for an injunction.

Hitman · 01-28-10, 03:58 PM

Disclaimer!: Not willing to start a legal discussion here, but as jurist I will tell you some things I know. Not for further discussion, but for simple information.

The intellectual property is not protected by the contents of a stupid license you supposedly accept when you install the game, for the very simple reason that you had no chance to negotiate it with the company. That's what we call in Spain "general contracting conditions" or unnegotiated conditions. The contents of the intellectual property is defined by the law, and anything in the EULA that is against the law, or the laws that rule customers rights in the EU simply is considered as not put there, as a protection of teh customer. Period.

Now, regarding the contents and extents of the intellectual property of the code by UBI, they could theoretically enforce a prohibition to MODIFY their stuff, using it as a base, but NOT to release for free stuff that is not based in their property. This, for example, includes any new graphic that you create from scratch and can be used to replace an original SH3 one. There could be a deep argumentation about the extents of what would and not be prohibited, but as I have already said, this is not something I would like to happen here.

The official subsim.com position on this matter, else Neal says something different is:

We will respect any decission that UBI makes regarding such questions. If UBI wants the modding of their products to stop in subsim.com forums, so be it. Subsim.com will not enter legal discussions or unfriendly relationship with gaming companies, unless something very serious would justify it. And the modding thing is right now not such a reason.

Now please, let the thread continue but avoid legal discussions, and let those for lawyers in the courts.

=FI=Ghost · 01-28-10, 05:28 PM

Let's just hope that it won't come to that. Even if it does, tough, we can always move to another forum

JScones · 01-29-10, 02:04 AM

I'm tempted to do some more work on SH3Cmdr simply because I am not sensing a mass exodus to SH5 just yet.

piri_reis · 01-29-10, 06:25 AM

Not that I mod much, but the thought of UBI requesting the modding to stop, just gets me going.
No way they will do that, and if they do, it's on like donkey kong.

On the other hand, if SH5 isn't a huge flop, and they get reasonable and drop the DRM, most modders could move to that platform, until then I think this forum will go strong.

bigboywooly · 01-29-10, 07:41 AM

What you have to remember is there are still ppl in here that cant play SH4 due to comp specs
Let alone SH5

My own comp is touch and go as to whether will play SH5 and is only just over a yr old

I see SH3 going for a long time yet

01-28-10, 03:58 PM	#5
Hitman Pacific Aces Dev Team Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Spain Posts: 6,109 Downloads: 109 Uploads: 2	Disclaimer!: Not willing to start a legal discussion here, but as jurist I will tell you some things I know. Not for further discussion, but for simple information. The intellectual property is not protected by the contents of a stupid license you supposedly accept when you install the game, for the very simple reason that you had no chance to negotiate it with the company. That's what we call in Spain "general contracting conditions" or unnegotiated conditions. The contents of the intellectual property is defined by the law, and anything in the EULA that is against the law, or the laws that rule customers rights in the EU simply is considered as not put there, as a protection of teh customer. Period. Now, regarding the contents and extents of the intellectual property of the code by UBI, they could theoretically enforce a prohibition to MODIFY their stuff, using it as a base, but NOT to release for free stuff that is not based in their property. This, for example, includes any new graphic that you create from scratch and can be used to replace an original SH3 one. There could be a deep argumentation about the extents of what would and not be prohibited, but as I have already said, this is not something I would like to happen here. The official subsim.com position on this matter, else Neal says something different is: We will respect any decission that UBI makes regarding such questions. If UBI wants the modding of their products to stop in subsim.com forums, so be it. Subsim.com will not enter legal discussions or unfriendly relationship with gaming companies, unless something very serious would justify it. And the modding thing is right now not such a reason. Now please, let the thread continue but avoid legal discussions, and let those for lawyers in the courts. __________________ One day I will return to sea ...

01-28-10, 05:28 PM	#6
=FI=Ghost Gunner Join Date: May 2009 Location: Temerin, Serbia/Günzburg, Germany. Posts: 99 Downloads: 93 Uploads: 0	Let's just hope that it won't come to that. Even if it does, tough, we can always move to another forum __________________ Bury me at sea where no murdered ghosts can haunt me, if I rock upon the waves then no corpse can lay upon me.

01-29-10, 06:25 AM	#8
piri_reis Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Istanbul, Turkiye Posts: 715 Downloads: 115 Uploads: 0	Not that I mod much, but the thought of UBI requesting the modding to stop, just gets me going. No way they will do that, and if they do, it's on like donkey kong. On the other hand, if SH5 isn't a huge flop, and they get reasonable and drop the DRM, most modders could move to that platform, until then I think this forum will go strong. __________________ Lt.z.S. Barbaros Hayreddin, U-35, 2nd Flot/Kiel, Type VIIB Oct.29.1939, 2nd Patrol Eastern English Waters Running SH5/TWOS

01-29-10, 07:41 AM	#9
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	What you have to remember is there are still ppl in here that cant play SH4 due to comp specs Let alone SH5 My own comp is touch and go as to whether will play SH5 and is only just over a yr old I see SH3 going for a long time yet __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

01-29-10, 02:04 AM	#7
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I'm tempted to do some more work on SH3Cmdr simply because I am not sensing a mass exodus to SH5 just yet.