[REL] Tutorial for tracking with sonar

jerm138 · 01-26-10, 10:22 PM

I'm not sure. I don't know what the MoBo tutorial is.

I've seen a couple tutorials on this method before, but none that really described the nuts and bolts of why it works.

I think that understanding the theory behind a technique helps you master it.

But that might just be because I'm a nuke.

I'm goin' down · 01-27-10, 12:23 AM

It is an maneuvering board program by aaronblood and has its own forum. It is a masterpiece of work on intercepting ships. It is based on real life manuevering boards used on subs. You can used advanced intercept techniques with MoBo and the tutorial discusses something similar to your post. It is worth visiting the MoBo forum and getting familiar with it. The tutrial is almost as good as the program, which is amazing.

Armistead · 01-27-10, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by I'm goin' down

It is an maneuvering board program by aaronblood and has its own forum. It is a masterpiece of work on intercepting ships. It is based on real life manuevering boards used on subs. You can used advanced intercept techniques with MoBo and the tutorial discusses something similar to your post. It is worth visiting the MoBo forum and getting familiar with it. The tutrial is almost as good as the program, which is amazing.

Yep, that it is....

XLjedi · 01-28-10, 08:05 AM

I believe you...

I never really thought about speeding up and slowing down before. So I guess it's OK as long as you don't maintain a constant speed then, correct?

jerm138 · 01-28-10, 08:23 AM

I've been thinking about this (probably too much) and I realized that you were partially correct in your original post, Aaronblood...

The concept I presented is still correct: The intersecting line that produces equidistant segments will give away the ship's course (and range if you have enough data) BUT .... (and here's the part where you were correct) the way you find that line will not be the same as if you're sitting still. You can't just move the first reading over then draw intersecting lines... it's more complicated than that for dynamic data.

I have to look into it further to see if there's a way to find that magical line with equal segments with data taken while you're moving.

Thanks for second-guessing me on it and making me think about it more.

Back to the drawing board...

XLjedi · 01-28-10, 08:06 PM

Actually I dunno...

(funny how we're arguing on behalf of each other now

)

After I typed that response (early this morning) it dawned on me that I was thinking in reference to a relative motion plot on a maneuvering board where all lines would radiate from the center.

In your case, you're plotting bearings on a DRT (dead reckoning tracer). The inherent motion I was thinking about I believe is accounted for in your update of OwnShip's position. Your plot looks more like the TMA lines in Dr.Sids Least Squares TMA solution example rather than one of my relative motion examples.

In MoBo there is a TMA tool that will do the measuring between the lines to help determine the target TC. Would you mind if I worked up an example or two on MoBo? ...for the benefit of those who like to use it. Of course, it would be even better if I could enlist you to do it for me.

Your example and Dr.Sid's original examples are both currently not represented with tutorials in MoBo. However, since MoBo is both a DRT and a Maneuvering Board, it is perfectly capable of handling the technique.

Incidentally, what graphics program are you currently using to create your tutorial images?

jerm138 · 01-28-10, 09:37 PM

I've never used MoBo, so I'm not sure I'd be much help there. I didn't even know it existed until this thread.

If you could come up with a way to prove or disprove this method, that'd be great.

I know the part about an intersecting line with equidistant segments is correct. The only part that would really need tested is the method for finding said line when OwnShip is not stationary.

For my tutorial images, I'm just using PowerPoint and exporting to .pdf. PowerPoint is an excellent vector drawing tool if you know how to use it. I'm a vector-art fanboy... raster doesn't cut it for me. I've tinkered with powerpoint for many years and I've made some pretty complex images with it. I even used it to re-make Cap'n Scurvy's AoB circular slide rule. I posted pictures of it here. It comes in pretty handy.

razark · 01-27-10, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jerm138

I've seen a couple tutorials on this method before, but none that really described the nuts and bolts of why it works.

I think that understanding the theory behind a technique helps you master it.

I saw a video on this technique just recently. You tutorial helped me better understand how to do it, and exactly why it works. Thank you.

virtualpender · 01-27-10, 05:32 PM

This is really handy. Thanks for putting this out. I hope it will be added to the Targeting Tutorial sticky mod.

jerm138 · 01-27-10, 06:13 PM

I'm glad it helped.

That'd be cool if it could get on a sticky. I'd be semi-famous!

Pisces · 01-27-10, 06:21 PM

Superb!!! It looks very much like what Nefelodamon does in his hydrophone tutorial (video) that he posted in the Sh3 section.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154461

http://www.filefront.com/14186971/Hy...on.part01.rar/

Jerm138: Excellently clear and step-by-step tutorial. Just like I would use the drawing tools. Well done!

-Danse- · 01-27-10, 06:37 PM

Very neat and concise. You've really broken it down and made it bare-bones simple.

The illustrations help a great deal, and the transition from theory to in-game use of tools is considerate.

Thanks!

ETR3(SS) · 01-27-10, 07:54 PM

Someone tell the FToW that if sonars data is screwy it's because there an Electrician at Broadband.

XLjedi · 01-27-10, 08:52 PM

For most of your illustrations, the logic appears correct. I particularly liked the drawing with the two triangles. That's a nice illustration.

I think you'll find however, that if you attempt this while moving, your own motion will skew the plotted ships course. You'd be plotting the DRM (direction of relative motion) rather than the TC (true course). You may indeed even be able to triangulate on a location, but you won't have the correct track unless you do the vector addition and adjust for your OwnShips movement.

Most of your illustrations are related to stationary observations and those are all correct.... but the one where OwnShip is moving and speeding up and slowing down for instance, will only give you a DRM line (I think

). ...and it may even be OK if you just happen to be on a perfect parrallel path (as you chose to draw it).

I even think that example where you're showing OwnShip stearing an irregular course might only yield a DRM. The irregular course has an underlying motion vector that (I think) would need to be added to the plotted DRM. I could be wrong on this one... not 100% sure. Anyone can feel free to call me a doofus on this one, I haven't tested it.

(yeah I tend to appear when my name gets mentioned)

01-26-10, 10:22 PM	#1
jerm138 Watch Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 332 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I'm not sure. I don't know what the MoBo tutorial is. I've seen a couple tutorials on this method before, but none that really described the nuts and bolts of why it works. I think that understanding the theory behind a technique helps you master it. But that might just be because I'm a nuke. __________________

01-27-10, 12:23 AM	#2
I'm goin' down Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Notify command we have entered the Grass Sea Posts: 2,822 Downloads: 813 Uploads: 0	MoBo It is an maneuvering board program by aaronblood and has its own forum. It is a masterpiece of work on intercepting ships. It is based on real life manuevering boards used on subs. You can used advanced intercept techniques with MoBo and the tutorial discusses something similar to your post. It is worth visiting the MoBo forum and getting familiar with it. The tutrial is almost as good as the program, which is amazing.

01-28-10, 08:05 AM	#4
XLjedi Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 1,243 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 8	I believe you... I never really thought about speeding up and slowing down before. So I guess it's OK as long as you don't maintain a constant speed then, correct? __________________

01-28-10, 08:23 AM	#5
jerm138 Watch Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 332 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I've been thinking about this (probably too much) and I realized that you were partially correct in your original post, Aaronblood... The concept I presented is still correct: The intersecting line that produces equidistant segments will give away the ship's course (and range if you have enough data) BUT .... (and here's the part where you were correct) the way you find that line will not be the same as if you're sitting still. You can't just move the first reading over then draw intersecting lines... it's more complicated than that for dynamic data. I have to look into it further to see if there's a way to find that magical line with equal segments with data taken while you're moving. Thanks for second-guessing me on it and making me think about it more. Back to the drawing board... __________________

01-28-10, 08:06 PM	#6
XLjedi Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 1,243 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 8	Actually I dunno... (funny how we're arguing on behalf of each other now ) After I typed that response (early this morning) it dawned on me that I was thinking in reference to a relative motion plot on a maneuvering board where all lines would radiate from the center. In your case, you're plotting bearings on a DRT (dead reckoning tracer). The inherent motion I was thinking about I believe is accounted for in your update of OwnShip's position. Your plot looks more like the TMA lines in Dr.Sids Least Squares TMA solution example rather than one of my relative motion examples. In MoBo there is a TMA tool that will do the measuring between the lines to help determine the target TC. Would you mind if I worked up an example or two on MoBo? ...for the benefit of those who like to use it. Of course, it would be even better if I could enlist you to do it for me. Your example and Dr.Sid's original examples are both currently not represented with tutorials in MoBo. However, since MoBo is both a DRT and a Maneuvering Board, it is perfectly capable of handling the technique. Incidentally, what graphics program are you currently using to create your tutorial images? __________________

01-28-10, 09:37 PM	#7
jerm138 Watch Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 332 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I've never used MoBo, so I'm not sure I'd be much help there. I didn't even know it existed until this thread. If you could come up with a way to prove or disprove this method, that'd be great. I know the part about an intersecting line with equidistant segments is correct. The only part that would really need tested is the method for finding said line when OwnShip is not stationary. For my tutorial images, I'm just using PowerPoint and exporting to .pdf. PowerPoint is an excellent vector drawing tool if you know how to use it. I'm a vector-art fanboy... raster doesn't cut it for me. I've tinkered with powerpoint for many years and I've made some pretty complex images with it. I even used it to re-make Cap'n Scurvy's AoB circular slide rule. I posted pictures of it here. It comes in pretty handy. __________________

01-27-10, 05:32 PM	#9
virtualpender Sonar Guy Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 381 Downloads: 281 Uploads: 0	This is really handy. Thanks for putting this out. I hope it will be added to the Targeting Tutorial sticky mod.

01-27-10, 06:13 PM	#10
jerm138 Watch Officer Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 332 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	I'm glad it helped. That'd be cool if it could get on a sticky. I'd be semi-famous! __________________

01-27-10, 06:21 PM	#11
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Superb!!! It looks very much like what Nefelodamon does in his hydrophone tutorial (video) that he posted in the Sh3 section. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154461 http://www.filefront.com/14186971/Hy...on.part01.rar/ Jerm138: Excellently clear and step-by-step tutorial. Just like I would use the drawing tools. Well done! __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

01-27-10, 06:37 PM	#12
-Danse- Swabbie Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 14 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	Very neat and concise. You've really broken it down and made it bare-bones simple. The illustrations help a great deal, and the transition from theory to in-game use of tools is considerate. Thanks!

01-27-10, 07:54 PM	#13
ETR3(SS) Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Between test depth and periscope depth Posts: 3,021 Downloads: 175 Uploads: 16	Someone tell the FToW that if sonars data is screwy it's because there an Electrician at Broadband. __________________ USS Kentucky SSBN 737 (G) Comms Div 2003-2006 Qualified 19 November 03 Yes I was really on a submarine.

01-27-10, 08:52 PM	#14
XLjedi Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Palm Beach, Florida Posts: 1,243 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 8	For most of your illustrations, the logic appears correct. I particularly liked the drawing with the two triangles. That's a nice illustration. I think you'll find however, that if you attempt this while moving, your own motion will skew the plotted ships course. You'd be plotting the DRM (direction of relative motion) rather than the TC (true course). You may indeed even be able to triangulate on a location, but you won't have the correct track unless you do the vector addition and adjust for your OwnShips movement. Most of your illustrations are related to stationary observations and those are all correct.... but the one where OwnShip is moving and speeding up and slowing down for instance, will only give you a DRM line (I think ). ...and it may even be OK if you just happen to be on a perfect parrallel path (as you chose to draw it). I even think that example where you're showing OwnShip stearing an irregular course might only yield a DRM. The irregular course has an underlying motion vector that (I think) would need to be added to the plotted DRM. I could be wrong on this one... not 100% sure. Anyone can feel free to call me a doofus on this one, I haven't tested it. (yeah I tend to appear when my name gets mentioned) __________________ Last edited by XLjedi; 01-27-10 at 09:11 PM.