A few questions regarding realism, maybe something else...

nodlew · 12-30-09, 07:35 PM

I have noted that there are mods to make the game harder--harder than GWX on full realism, which is what I play (except having external view enabled just for the eye candy and for taking screenshots). OLC is one that I have downloaded, which, with my brief look at it, appears to do away with the targeting computer altogether, requiring the use of gadgets to get target speed, angle on the bow, etc.

I have read a little and learned the following things. The TDC was an American innovation, and it was superior to anything the Germans or the Japs had. The SH3 TDC appears to be a much simplified version of the American device, hence its inclusion in a U-Boat is user-friendly, but unhistoric.

But I have read that both the Germans and the Japanese had analog computers of their own. So is OLC the most realistic, true to history version of the game available? There seems to be no "computer" at all, no way to estimate range, or compute target speed, or input bow angle--all you can do is point your periscope at whatever gyroangle you have calculated (using enigmatic devices) and fire. But if that is realistic, then I want to learn how to do that bringing me to my next series of questions:

If OLC is historically accurate, what gadgets do I need to download to target my torpedoes (can't sort out what is what) and where do I find info on how to employ said gadgets?

As Roger Waters said, "Thought I'd something more to say..."

Nope, that's it.

Pisces · 12-30-09, 08:44 PM

Hitman is our own esteemed submarine technology history professor.

I don't think he is onr in real life though. He's the best to give an answer on your question as it relates to what was and is not historical realism. It might take him awhile though to get out of those stuffy museum archives.

He also worked together with OLC and Joegrundman to develop the tools you use in OLC's gui mod.

I have seen a german website of a guy (link below) that worked at a real sub museum in germany. He had information about some of the technology back then. The methods used in OLC's attack periscope reasembles quite accurately the desciption of german attack periscope on that site. Appearantly the germans developed a split prism mechanism into their periscopes (like is used in SH4 in the american sub) but also had a double function (as far as I know the americans weren't as clever ;p ) to also allow to measure the AOB based on the apperant length or aspect ratio (length over height) of the target in view. So the attack periscope seems quite realistic. Maybe it is not a computer terms of our modern definition but it certainly computed range and angle on the bow based on visual input by the observer.

As for the other gadgets, I'm not really sure what you mean. OLC included a calculator disk to help calculate bearings, course, AOB and such. Hitman found those real disks somewhere and started this whole project of replicating them (also the backside to help with speed/range/time/angle calculstions ) as handheld tools and they where shortly thereafter made into digital form , as a seperate program but also as a mod useable ingame. The way he suggests to measure speed by making a fixed line with your periscope centerlinge is also true to the technology as used back then. ('Feste linie im raum'= fixed line through space, in the link below)

http://www.uboot995.homepage.t-onlin...__zubehor.html

But appearantly those technologies werent used on all boats during all years of the war. Or commanders felt like preffering their own judgements by eye.

Anyway, Hitman where are you!!!

nodlew · 12-30-09, 09:28 PM

Thank you, Pisces, for taking the time to answer my questions. Very helpful. I will check out the links you provided. Maybe Hitman will bestow some of his wisdom.

Kpt. Lehmann · 12-30-09, 10:06 PM

OLC also made a 30 minute tutorial video on how to use his interface mod, including scope specifics in relation to targetting.

Anyone have a link to it?

Dowly · 12-31-09, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kpt. Lehmann

OLC also made a 30 minute tutorial video on how to use his interface mod, including scope specifics in relation to targetting.

Anyone have a link to it?

I believe the links to the vids are on the OLC's own thread.

nodlew · 12-31-09, 01:25 AM

I'll check those out Dowly. I've tried to access a couple of tutorial vids--not available on Filefront. Removed, apparently. I'll look again. I'm using the OLC Ubermod now--so far I've taught myself to match speed with targets to get their speed, get a 90deg angle on the bow to make things simple, and just guess at range--trying to be at or within 1km. Have no clue what to do with the attack disk.

nodlew · 12-31-09, 01:26 AM

It's an honor sir. I absolutely freakin' love your freakin' mod.

Pisces · 12-31-09, 06:45 AM

Unless FileFront felt like a new years cleaning again the OLC tutorial video should be at the link in my signature.

[EDIT]
OLC's own upload here at subsim.com:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1112

nodlew · 01-01-10, 07:17 AM

Thanks Pisces, will download the vids as soon as my bandwidth with Hughesnet is back to normal--right now I'm under a restriction for exceeding their "fair use" policy. I hate that company. If there were any other option, I'd use the satellite for a shotgun target.

nodlew · 01-02-10, 08:46 AM

Got the videos and they have made many things clear. Now I can use the range finder and AOB finder on the attack scope, and I learned a few other things about the game. OLC's advice to stabilize the scope view, that it is actually more realistic to do so, convinced me to do it, and I don't curse nearly so much now when targeting my torpedoes. God that bouncing scope view was a pain, and it was making me queasy. I still have a little trouble with AOB. When the target is large and close, the tick marks can add up to over 30--and the Scope Gadget doesn't have angles for numbers that large. Past ninety--nothing. I guess you just look to the other side of 90 and find the same relative position and transfer? Or are there angles in a different pos I'm missing? Also know how to get speed of target. Works very well. I'm probably more accurate this way than I was with the computer. I'm confused that the timer works and gets the speed regardless of the aspect of the target ship. A 100 m long ship at 90 deg travelling five Kts should pass through the line faster than a 100m long ship travelling away at a 45 deg angle at 5 Kts, shouldn't it? Not much of a math whiz. Anyway, if it works, bgawd, it works. And, so far, whatever angle, my torpedoes seem to go right through the center.
This has added a lot of detail and interest (fun) to the game for me. Thanks to OLC for making this mod.
The video cuts out just as OLC was about to explain how to use the Attack Disk to get target course.
Did have some problems with the downloads. I downloaded from your site, Pisces, and Winrar said the file was corrupt. I was able to repair the files using Quick Par enough to view them. I attempted to download them twice more, once from the second link you provided--same thing. Corrupt. Problem could be on my end. Maybe Winrar needs an update, or maybe my connection to Filefront is just bad. Anyway--will look for other help with the attack disk, and try downloading the Tutorial vids at least once more.

Pisces · 01-02-10, 11:57 AM

Ok, something went wrong when I downloaded the file from subsim.com yesterday and uploaded it to filefront. Winrar version isn't the culprit. The link from subsim.com is good!

Speed measurement. It's a twilight-zone thing, but yeah, same speed no matter how a target is orriented to you takes the same amount of time through the line. With that line you sort of make an imaginary wall in the sea which the target moves into. If you move toward or away from the target directly and have the periscope pointed at 0 or 180 degrees than that 'wall' is fixed on the earth. If you are not moving along the direction of view then the wall is moving sideways and influences the speed measurement. The AOB is only important because you can't see the ship's rear-end if AOB is close to 0 (or you can't see the bow when AOB is close to 180.) You need to see both ends to know when to start and stop the time.

You don't have to do the AOB thing every time. Only once (if you think you can do it accurately enough), or if you have changed course (or he has). If you know exactly how much you changed course you can even add/subtract the amount yourself and reset the AOB indicator. Just leave the periscope pointing in the direction when you opened the TDC panel. When the TDC panel is closed the AOB is updated automatically as you move the periscope. Before you fire you only need to make a range measurement and update it. And only that if the torpedo needs to make a turn (gyro angle). If it goes straight ahead don't bother with it.

If you measured a length/width mark that is to the left of the 90 degrees mark than you can be sure something went wrong in the whole process. Wrong range measurement, wrong used mastheight value, level of waterline, wrong mast/object used for height, wrong widthsize, forgot to slide the wheel. You name it. The mark you find below the bow or rear-end should ALLWAYS be on the right of it. Even if the AOB appears to be beyond 90 degrees in the view, when the target is moving away. If the target is moving away you need to count further but clockwise when you pass 90. As (AOB) 80 can also mean AOB 110, or (AOB) 60 can also mean AOB 120., etc. I'm sorry for the confussion but that is because of the symmetry of the sin-curve. The most inner scale should contain those numbers to avoid confusion but you have to admit it's pretty crowded there allready.

Pisces · 01-02-10, 01:55 PM

I re-re-uploaded a (correct) version of both OLC's videos:

http://www.filefront.com/15273293/OL...0Tutorials.rar

flakmonkey · 01-02-10, 03:01 PM

Could anybody tell me which codec i need to play those tutorial vids?? All i get is the sound and no video, with media player 11

KL-alfman · 01-02-10, 03:52 PM

I had absolutely no problems when watching them with VLC-Player (winamp wouldn't do it ....).
you can download the english version for free here:
http://vlc-media-player.en.softonic.com/

flakmonkey · 01-02-10, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KL-alfman

I had absolutely no problems when watching them with VLC-Player (winamp wouldn't do it ....).
you can download the english version for free here:
http://vlc-media-player.en.softonic.com/

Cheers, i found the problem in the end, since im on a fresh install of vista id lost my divx codecs, redownloaded and the vids work fine now.

12-30-09, 07:35 PM	#1
nodlew Engineer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 202 Downloads: 572 Uploads: 0	A few questions regarding realism, maybe something else... I have noted that there are mods to make the game harder--harder than GWX on full realism, which is what I play (except having external view enabled just for the eye candy and for taking screenshots). OLC is one that I have downloaded, which, with my brief look at it, appears to do away with the targeting computer altogether, requiring the use of gadgets to get target speed, angle on the bow, etc. I have read a little and learned the following things. The TDC was an American innovation, and it was superior to anything the Germans or the Japs had. The SH3 TDC appears to be a much simplified version of the American device, hence its inclusion in a U-Boat is user-friendly, but unhistoric. But I have read that both the Germans and the Japanese had analog computers of their own. So is OLC the most realistic, true to history version of the game available? There seems to be no "computer" at all, no way to estimate range, or compute target speed, or input bow angle--all you can do is point your periscope at whatever gyroangle you have calculated (using enigmatic devices) and fire. But if that is realistic, then I want to learn how to do that bringing me to my next series of questions: If OLC is historically accurate, what gadgets do I need to download to target my torpedoes (can't sort out what is what) and where do I find info on how to employ said gadgets? As Roger Waters said, "Thought I'd something more to say..." Nope, that's it.

12-30-09, 08:44 PM	#2
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Hitman is our own esteemed submarine technology history professor. I don't think he is onr in real life though. He's the best to give an answer on your question as it relates to what was and is not historical realism. It might take him awhile though to get out of those stuffy museum archives. He also worked together with OLC and Joegrundman to develop the tools you use in OLC's gui mod. I have seen a german website of a guy (link below) that worked at a real sub museum in germany. He had information about some of the technology back then. The methods used in OLC's attack periscope reasembles quite accurately the desciption of german attack periscope on that site. Appearantly the germans developed a split prism mechanism into their periscopes (like is used in SH4 in the american sub) but also had a double function (as far as I know the americans weren't as clever ;p ) to also allow to measure the AOB based on the apperant length or aspect ratio (length over height) of the target in view. So the attack periscope seems quite realistic. Maybe it is not a computer terms of our modern definition but it certainly computed range and angle on the bow based on visual input by the observer. As for the other gadgets, I'm not really sure what you mean. OLC included a calculator disk to help calculate bearings, course, AOB and such. Hitman found those real disks somewhere and started this whole project of replicating them (also the backside to help with speed/range/time/angle calculstions ) as handheld tools and they where shortly thereafter made into digital form , as a seperate program but also as a mod useable ingame. The way he suggests to measure speed by making a fixed line with your periscope centerlinge is also true to the technology as used back then. ('Feste linie im raum'= fixed line through space, in the link below) http://www.uboot995.homepage.t-onlin...__zubehor.html But appearantly those technologies werent used on all boats during all years of the war. Or commanders felt like preffering their own judgements by eye. Anyway, Hitman where are you!!! __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

12-30-09, 09:28 PM	#3
nodlew Engineer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 202 Downloads: 572 Uploads: 0	Appreciated Thank you, Pisces, for taking the time to answer my questions. Very helpful. I will check out the links you provided. Maybe Hitman will bestow some of his wisdom.

12-30-09, 10:06 PM	#4
Kpt. Lehmann GWX Project Director Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: The Republic of Texas Posts: 7,001 Downloads: 124 Uploads: 0	OLC also made a 30 minute tutorial video on how to use his interface mod, including scope specifics in relation to targetting. Anyone have a link to it? __________________ www.thegreywolves.com All you need is good men. - Heinrich Lehmann-Willenbrock

12-31-09, 01:26 AM	#7
nodlew Engineer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 202 Downloads: 572 Uploads: 0	Kpt. Lehman.... It's an honor sir. I absolutely freakin' love your freakin' mod.

12-31-09, 01:25 AM	#6
nodlew Engineer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 202 Downloads: 572 Uploads: 0	I'll check those out Dowly. I've tried to access a couple of tutorial vids--not available on Filefront. Removed, apparently. I'll look again. I'm using the OLC Ubermod now--so far I've taught myself to match speed with targets to get their speed, get a 90deg angle on the bow to make things simple, and just guess at range--trying to be at or within 1km. Have no clue what to do with the attack disk.

12-31-09, 06:45 AM	#8
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Unless FileFront felt like a new years cleaning again the OLC tutorial video should be at the link in my signature. [EDIT] OLC's own upload here at subsim.com: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/down...o=file&id=1112 __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads Last edited by Pisces; 01-02-10 at 12:22 PM.

01-01-10, 07:17 AM	#9
nodlew Engineer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 202 Downloads: 572 Uploads: 0	Thanks Pisces, will download the vids as soon as my bandwidth with Hughesnet is back to normal--right now I'm under a restriction for exceeding their "fair use" policy. I hate that company. If there were any other option, I'd use the satellite for a shotgun target.

01-02-10, 08:46 AM	#10
nodlew Engineer Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 202 Downloads: 572 Uploads: 0	Got em. Got the videos and they have made many things clear. Now I can use the range finder and AOB finder on the attack scope, and I learned a few other things about the game. OLC's advice to stabilize the scope view, that it is actually more realistic to do so, convinced me to do it, and I don't curse nearly so much now when targeting my torpedoes. God that bouncing scope view was a pain, and it was making me queasy. I still have a little trouble with AOB. When the target is large and close, the tick marks can add up to over 30--and the Scope Gadget doesn't have angles for numbers that large. Past ninety--nothing. I guess you just look to the other side of 90 and find the same relative position and transfer? Or are there angles in a different pos I'm missing? Also know how to get speed of target. Works very well. I'm probably more accurate this way than I was with the computer. I'm confused that the timer works and gets the speed regardless of the aspect of the target ship. A 100 m long ship at 90 deg travelling five Kts should pass through the line faster than a 100m long ship travelling away at a 45 deg angle at 5 Kts, shouldn't it? Not much of a math whiz. Anyway, if it works, bgawd, it works. And, so far, whatever angle, my torpedoes seem to go right through the center. This has added a lot of detail and interest (fun) to the game for me. Thanks to OLC for making this mod. The video cuts out just as OLC was about to explain how to use the Attack Disk to get target course. Did have some problems with the downloads. I downloaded from your site, Pisces, and Winrar said the file was corrupt. I was able to repair the files using Quick Par enough to view them. I attempted to download them twice more, once from the second link you provided--same thing. Corrupt. Problem could be on my end. Maybe Winrar needs an update, or maybe my connection to Filefront is just bad. Anyway--will look for other help with the attack disk, and try downloading the Tutorial vids at least once more.

01-02-10, 11:57 AM	#11
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	Ok, something went wrong when I downloaded the file from subsim.com yesterday and uploaded it to filefront. Winrar version isn't the culprit. The link from subsim.com is good! Speed measurement. It's a twilight-zone thing, but yeah, same speed no matter how a target is orriented to you takes the same amount of time through the line. With that line you sort of make an imaginary wall in the sea which the target moves into. If you move toward or away from the target directly and have the periscope pointed at 0 or 180 degrees than that 'wall' is fixed on the earth. If you are not moving along the direction of view then the wall is moving sideways and influences the speed measurement. The AOB is only important because you can't see the ship's rear-end if AOB is close to 0 (or you can't see the bow when AOB is close to 180.) You need to see both ends to know when to start and stop the time. You don't have to do the AOB thing every time. Only once (if you think you can do it accurately enough), or if you have changed course (or he has). If you know exactly how much you changed course you can even add/subtract the amount yourself and reset the AOB indicator. Just leave the periscope pointing in the direction when you opened the TDC panel. When the TDC panel is closed the AOB is updated automatically as you move the periscope. Before you fire you only need to make a range measurement and update it. And only that if the torpedo needs to make a turn (gyro angle). If it goes straight ahead don't bother with it. If you measured a length/width mark that is to the left of the 90 degrees mark than you can be sure something went wrong in the whole process. Wrong range measurement, wrong used mastheight value, level of waterline, wrong mast/object used for height, wrong widthsize, forgot to slide the wheel. You name it. The mark you find below the bow or rear-end should ALLWAYS be on the right of it. Even if the AOB appears to be beyond 90 degrees in the view, when the target is moving away. If the target is moving away you need to count further but clockwise when you pass 90. As (AOB) 80 can also mean AOB 110, or (AOB) 60 can also mean AOB 120., etc. I'm sorry for the confussion but that is because of the symmetry of the sin-curve. The most inner scale should contain those numbers to avoid confusion but you have to admit it's pretty crowded there allready. __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

01-02-10, 01:55 PM	#12
Pisces Silent Hunter Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: AN9771 Posts: 4,904 Downloads: 304 Uploads: 0	I re-re-uploaded a (correct) version of both OLC's videos: http://www.filefront.com/15273293/OL...0Tutorials.rar __________________ My site downloads: https://ricojansen.nl/downloads

01-02-10, 03:01 PM	#13
flakmonkey Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Staffordshire, Uk Posts: 944 Downloads: 78 Uploads: 0	Could anybody tell me which codec i need to play those tutorial vids?? All i get is the sound and no video, with media player 11 __________________

01-02-10, 03:52 PM	#14
KL-alfman Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Weimar Posts: 930 Downloads: 86 Uploads: 0	I had absolutely no problems when watching them with VLC-Player (winamp wouldn't do it ....). you can download the english version for free here: http://vlc-media-player.en.softonic.com/ __________________ Life, Liberty and Property!