I wonder if convoys and ships will zig zig?

[Apocal]

A bit of a bringup, but I was wondering if were were going to get dynamic zig-zagging in SH5.

[karamazovnew]

I've played SH3 GWX for many months and had gotten used to the predictable zig zagging of the convoys after an initial attack. Actually the convoy itself didn't zig, every ship did it by itself resulting in very unrealistic behavior. Every attack became more of a chore so in the end I even started using Automatic Targeting to pass the time quicker between 1939-1942. But since playing OM (I was never good at convoys in TMO or RFB) I had to relearn tricks from scratch. It's very realistic and I believe that only once I was able to do an easy attack on a convoy like before.

- convoy formations are irregular
- convoys change course quite often
- zig zagging is made at convoy-level and is much more severe
- ships have different speeds in the same convoy, changing places constantly
- after an attack behavior is more dynamic. Convoys with many escorts will usually continue on their way with only small changes. Convoys less well protected will scatter in all directions.

On my last convoy attack I couldn't believe my eyes. In my initial attack, the convoy changed course twice by almost 30 degrees, a few minutes apart. Ships were shifting positions. A destroyer came in my direction after a radio report (I wanted that extra renown). Slipped by and got myself the biggest cargo and missed a tanker (but hit something else behind it by mistake and sunk a 5k tonner). After a bit of escort dodging I made my way back again and even after 12 hours, the convoy came exactly where I thought. Easy zig-zag I thought.

WRONG. They came from the wrong bearing. I found myself desperately trying to dodge the front escort as the entire convoy was heading at me. I was lucky they changed course again and found myself in the middle of this huge convoy with ships stretched out for miles, with absolutely no discernable form. I expected my tankers to be in the middle, as they were before. They weren't. They had slipped back to the tail and were going slower than the rest of the merchants. But the 5 escorts had also changed tactic and were now viciously guarding the 3 tanker group. I found myself shooting at -310 and +60 degree gyros from up close as I couldn't use my scope for a long time for fear of spotting. I was lucky to get away.

Overall it was amazing. As I said before, besides having a "real" crew, having a "real" enemy can be even more entertaining. Newbies might have a hard time adjusting to dynamic AI, but it's worth every second. I don't know how AI in SH4 works, or if it behaved the same in Vanilla. I don't know if there's AI involved there or just a realistic looking throw of the dice in a simplistic system. But it works

[finchOU]

As Steve said...Zig Zagging was to make the convoy/ship less predictable and harder to detect or harder to track. The "ZZ" in SH3 was always post attack...and carried on until you had evaded the DDs for a certain number of mins. I dont have specifics but if memory serves me correctly from readings....ships/convoys could change course every couple of hours to days or even mins depending on threat intel. So complex ZZ would be cool just to throw a wrench in your "easy kill" once you have found course and speed of a ship/convoy...would really make you have to pay attention and take multipule readings=challenge=replayablity.

oh and WOLFPACKS (the mud will continue till we have'em)

[IanC]

God I hope SH5 will have zig zags! I'm still scratching my head at why it wasn't included in SH3.

[Ducimus]

Zig zags are doable, but you have to be conservative in your waypoint lengths for reasons cited by tater.

Overall, i think i used a 20 or 30 KM leg, with a 10KM random radius on each waypoint, so that the exact course change, and base coarse, was never the exact same, but the zig zags were still in regular and somewhat predictable intervals.

Zig zags should be part of any campaign, as they make you think, and use guesswork. It's part of the hunt to say, "ok they zigged here, then zagged there, so i do an end around and position myself.....right about.... here".

It's satisfying to have predicted a convoys movments and placed yourself in the correct spot anticipating their next zig/zag. Zig zags SHOULD be part of the campaign files out of the box. With the proper script, it takes all but 5 minutes to do, particuarlly for the ATO since theres jack for landmasses to steer random units around.

[IanC]

It's not so complicated really, The Battle of the Atlantic was basically all about U-boats vs Convoys. So lets try to make both U-boats and convoys as realistic as possible. Some things you just can't skip on imho.

Originally Posted by IanC

It's not so complicated really, The Battle of the Atlantic was basically all about U-boats vs Convoys. So lets try to make both U-boats and convoys as realistic as possible. Some things you just can't skip on imho.

well like a lot of things in AI its easy to do something but it can be a nightmare to get that action to work correctly at the right time and place under the right circumstances.

while many things are easy to do, most of it so interweaved with so many other actions that things you would never think of have the ability to change how it reacts.

im not saying this is or isnt but sometimes the things that sound or appear to be very simple to do can be quite complicated to near imposible to get working correctly in the limited time you have to work on it sometimes

[Ducimus]

It's not so much an issue of complexity, as it is an issue of system resources. Zig zagging convoys double, or even triple the size of a campaign file. For example, a convoy file, before zigzagging may only be 345 KB in size, after running a script to insert zig zags, the same file could become 900+ KB in size. That may not sound like much, but remember the game tracks convoys by waypoints, and all that file size increase, is just pure, raw, waypoints for the game to track.

It's a very fine line you have to walk here, in terms historical accuracy verse system performance. From a file point of view, you have to balance how many zig zags you run (30 to 40KM legs is probably ideal in terms of performance), accross how many random groups, and how often they spawn. Too much, and the game slows down.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

It's not so much an issue of complexity, as it is an issue of system resources. Zig zagging convoys double, or even triple the size of a campaign file. For example, a convoy file, before zigzagging may only be 345 KB in size, after running a script to insert zig zags, the same file could become 900+ KB in size. That may not sound like much, but remember the game tracks convoys by waypoints, and all that file size increase, is just pure, raw, waypoints for the game to track.

It's a very fine line you have to walk here, in terms historical accuracy verse system performance. From a file point of view, you have to balance how many zig zags you run (30 to 40KM legs is probably ideal in terms of performance), accross how many random groups, and how often they spawn. Too much, and the game slows down.

But, and coming from a complete dumbass when it comes to campaign scripting, couldn't the dev's script a zig zag behavior for the convoys? I.e. when a convoy travels a "straight line" they do it in a zig zag pattern. All they would need to do at that point is plot the convoys base course waypoints, and all along that path, the convoy would execute the scripted zig zag behavior instead of scripting every single zig and zag waypoint?

Am I off base here?

[Peto]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

But, and coming from a complete dumbass when it comes to campaign scripting, couldn't the dev's script a zig zag behavior for the convoys? I.e. when a convoy travels a "straight line" they do it in a zig zag pattern. All they would need to do at that point is plot the convoys base course waypoints, and all along that path, the convoy would execute the scripted zig zag behavior instead of scripting every single zig and zag waypoint?

Am I off base here?

I think you're on the right track. To plan in ZZ's for all convoys for the entire course of their transit is (as pointed out by Duci and tater) ludicrous in the size of the data file involved for each convoy. What seems more reasonable to me is to activate a ZZ pattern for a convoy when the situation becomes tactical--ie when the player comes close enough to the convoy to spawn. The convoy could then select from pre-set patterns to run and simply run that routine over the base course. When contact is lost and the situation returns to "strategic", the convoy no longer follows the tactical ZZ pattern.

Another point to ponder is regarding the difficulty of AI station keeping in very large convoys. Anyone who has played with the editor in SH3 or 4 knows that ships can have a buggar of a time getting into formation after a course change. How to fix? It's a tough one if you want true AI of the convoys ships. A possibility would be that the convoy columns don't have to reform after every course change but that the ships all pivot the same number of degrees to their new heading. They did this historically because turning a convoy 8 miles wide took "a VERY long time" to get organized when maintaining column discipline.

I hope better ZZ's can be implemented...

[Ducimus]

It's my opinion that they could do zig zags as I described with 30 or 40KM legs, if they really wanted to, and not use much system resources. ( Ship station keeping can be fixed somewhat by spacing the colums out farther. Say 700-800 meters instead of 500ish meters.)

But.... i doubt it they will. I suspect the campaign files will be exactly like Sh3 and SH4. 550 meter spacing on convoy columns, and random groups respawning faster then rabbits fornicate, traveling in straight lines with wide random waypoints to spread the traffic out in big 300KM wide shipping lanes.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

But.... i doubt it they will. I suspect the campaign files will be exactly like Sh3 and SH4. 550 meter spacing on convoy columns, and random groups respawning faster then rabbits fornicate, traveling in straight lines with wide random waypoints to spread the traffic out in big 300KM wide shipping lanes.

Nooooooooooooo!!

[Ducimus]

That was sarchasm ya know.

[Alex]

I wonder if convoys and ships will zig zig?

No, they will zig zag.

Axis ships ONLY do sieg sieg.


Sorry.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Peto

I think you're on the right track. To plan in ZZ's for all convoys for the entire course of their transit is (as pointed out by Duci and tater) ludicrous in the size of the data file involved for each convoy. What seems more reasonable to me is to activate a ZZ pattern for a convoy when the situation becomes tactical--ie when the player comes close enough to the convoy to spawn. The convoy could then select from pre-set patterns to run and simply run that routine over the base course. When contact is lost and the situation returns to "strategic", the convoy no longer follows the tactical ZZ pattern.

Another point to ponder is regarding the difficulty of AI station keeping in very large convoys. Anyone who has played with the editor in SH3 or 4 knows that ships can have a buggar of a time getting into formation after a course change. How to fix? It's a tough one if you want true AI of the convoys ships. A possibility would be that the convoy columns don't have to reform after every course change but that the ships all pivot the same number of degrees to their new heading. They did this historically because turning a convoy 8 miles wide took "a VERY long time" to get organized when maintaining column discipline.

I hope better ZZ's can be implemented...

Exactly! Have the ships in convoy execute a 30 to 50 degree turn left and right at predetermined intervals while they maintain a base course. If they get damaged, have the "convoy member" flag turn off and they straggle behind.

I think this could be done quite easily. But then again, I'm no programmer.