A date that shall live in infamy !

[Sailor Steve]

But several threads on other SS boards already.

Me, I don't start threads about historical dates. But I already started my morning by watching Tora! Tora! Tora! yet again.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But I already started my morning by watching Tora! Tora! Tora! yet again.

Thanks for giving me the idea, Steve. That's what I'm going to do tonight. Tuck in with Tora, Tora, Tora and a drink and raise the glass to the guys who lost their lives 68 years ago.

[Skybird]

A date that shall live in infamy !

I always ask myself 'Why?' when hearing that reference.

One could ask whether or not it was a clever decision to go to war. But to hold somebody else responsible for one's own fault to be too sleepy while the other already was executing with determination and had managed to hide the attack, is simply stupid.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I always ask myself 'Why?' when hearing that reference.

One could ask whether or not it was a clever decision to go to war. But to hold somebody else responsible for one's own fault to be too sleepy while the other already was executing with determination and had managed to hide the attack, is simply stupid.

Um, it's one of the opening lines of Franklin D. Roosevelt's speech to Congress asking for a Declaration of War on December 8th, 1941.

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I always ask myself 'Why?' when hearing that reference.

Because it changed mankinds fate?

[Skybird]

Embarking on mass killing hundreds of thousands of people and destroying whole cities - and considering it to be of vital importance whether or not one wears a necktie, or gives a declaration of war. Hilarious. Or perverse, if you prefer.

If you have decided for war, f### all that civilised attitude, and better focus on ripping your enemy heart out of his chest as fast as you can and drink his blood and burn his home and let all heavens fall down onto his country.

You don't like that? Then be slow to start a war - that is wise, nevertheless always be prepared to defend yourself - that also is wise. America could and should have known what was coming, but allowed to get caught on the wrong feet. Blame yourself.

My sympathy were people want to remember the dead. But were you call your enemy infamous for having fought as best as he could, all you get is my laughter.

I just have exchanged PMs with somebody participating in this thread - he knows that I mean him when reading this. If he wishes he may quote me from that.

[antikristuseke]

Hindsight is always 20/20

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

But were you call your enemy infamous for having fought as best as he could, all you get is my laughter.

Roosevelt didn't use the term "Infamy" because the attackers fought the best they could. He used it in part because, as was previously described, it was an attack made before the declaration of war. He used it because he was angry, because he wanted to inspire his fellow Americans to the same anger, and, yes, there was a bit of propaganda involved, as there always is in any speech of that type.

As with any other discussion of war, including the many we've had on war crimes, the times and circumstances need to be taken into account before any judgement is made of the people who were involved.

[Lionclaw]

Wouldn't a decleration of war remove the element of suprise?

Psst! Hey, we're going to declare war on you, just so you know. So you'll be ready.

Maximum damage to enemy forces is best achieved when you catch them unawares. Feels like a "Well, duh!" moment.

No disrespect meant.



Didn't they see the incoming aircraft on radar, but they thought it was B-17's or something?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Roosevelt didn't use the term "Infamy" because the attackers fought the best they could. He used it in part because, as was previously described, it was an attack made before the declaration of war. He used it because he was angry, because he wanted to inspire his fellow Americans to the same anger, and, yes, there was a bit of propaganda involved, as there always is in any speech of that type.

As with any other discussion of war, including the many we've had on war crimes, the times and circumstances need to be taken into account before any judgement is made of the people who were involved.

Roosevelt was not surprised by the fact that japan started war, because I follow those historians saying that provoking that attack by his stangling oil policy was his only way to bring america into the war, something the congress and the wide public strongly opposed untilm Pearl Harbour. Roosevelt most liekly was not surpsied by the Japanese attacking, but probbaly by the sheer scale of the initial attack. and it always is two different things to just talk about and plan for war, and then being confronted by real war in reality. The american policy left the Japanese only two choices, to either withdraw as a strategic major player from the Pacific and leave it to the US, or to hope defeating america in a war. cinsidering their imperial attitude oif that time and the mindset of their traditional code, it was to be expected that they would strike.

Declaration of wars - when you decided to start killing hundreds of thousands and destroy whole cities, i think these civilised acts of elaborated manners loose in relevance. leave them for times of peace and the dinnerhalls and the party at the embassy. In war, the dead are still as dead as before - with or without such a declaration.

Be hesitent to launch war, but when you do, let nothing, really nothing come between you and the ultimate destruction of your enemy. and that is what the Japanese followed. When they decided for war, they planned, prepared, hid as best as they could, and deceived the americans as best as they could, and then struck with all force like a lightning out of the blue sky. They acted with maximum determination and without hesitation form the moment on they decided for war. No time for romantising the bloody business that lied ahead! If it would have gone as the embassy planned, Washington would have gotten the war declaration just minutes ahead of the attck - an you want to tell me that it would have made or would have meant a difference...? You would complain about that they did not give oyu the warning time oyu needed to ready your forces in a better way. In other words: you expect the Japanese to act stupid, and then complain about them not complying with your intention. that is absurd!

There is one war movie aboiut WWI, where an american squadron arrives in europe, and one american pilot refuses to follow all this nonsens thing abiut honiur and muttual respect between English and Germna pilots. He behaved like a wild boar in the sky and shot and killed everything that moved, refused to save injured enemies, and payed them no respect whatever. Initially them English attacked him for that. they were not sitting in the trenches and suffered the misery of the ordinbary infantryman, but were fighting like knights in the sky and considered themselves to be gentleman members of the same noble class like the german pilots. that way, they lost against the Germans - and even saluted then Germans for their superiority! BIG TIME BULLSH!T. That American flyer was right from the first day on, the air war became more nasty, and the dominance of the german air force started to wane.

I have another famous story, that is attributed to a heroic figure in Japan, Musashi. He is said to have gotten into hot argument with a local landlord where he stayed. Samurai that they are, they fix a duel for the morning of the next day, and Musashi leaves. On the next morning, the lord has a little parade, and his guards and the servants and the flag carriers all leave the castle and marchd to the beach. No Musashi there. They wait, but Musashi does not come. the lord becomes angry, but you are a lord and a samurai, you see, so you just keep your countenance. He waits. It becomes noon - No Musashi anywhere. the lord is boiling in his own anger, and tries to rather keep his face unmoved. The hours pass. when the sun starts to set, a boat appeares on the sea, and approaches the beach. The lord calls his servants to order, a nice looking parade, and althoug being angry, he feels the need to follow the rules of staying calm and polite and he starts to greet his oppent, planning his death soon after. They stand on the beach, where the boat just hits the sand. The lord starts greeting Musashi. Musashi does not greet in return, just jumps out of the boat with his sword over his head, let hear his war cry and smashes the lords skull with one powerful stroke. then he is back in the boat and rudders back to the sea, leaving behind a completely stunned audience. - That'S how it is done, Steve. All that rules of honour and politeness and the parade and paying respect - once the war, the fight is decided, all that does not change a thing, it does not mean anything, it only is BIG TIME BULLSH!T. When you have decided for the fight - be a raging bull with mean eyes: strike, shatter, kill. Simply that.

You fight, or you don't. Let there be no in-between. And if God himself steps in your way hindering you to kill your enemy - kill God first, and then kill your enemy.

America did not udnerstand this. And that'S why Pearl Harbour became possible. It was an American failure, a lacking understanding of the culture and nature of the enemy and the way he is ticking. the japanese in return underestimated the industrial potential of the US, and the way a war would rally american public opinion around the flag. but even if they knew it I wonder if they would have taken the alternative to voluntarily withdraw as a big player from the Pacific gameboard. I doubt it.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Because it changed mankinds fate?

How?

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Dowly

How?

The Japanese learned the hard way what happens when atoms are split. I would say that was the best thing to come out of WW2. We've never used those awful weapons again and hopefully we never will.

[Ducimus]

Unless im mistaken, the reason why it was labeled a "day of infamy" was not just because it was a sneak attack, but because the attack occured before Japan had declared war. Yes they had the declaration in the works, and indeed was on its way, but the fact of the matter is, they instigated a full scale attack, BEFORE a declaration of war was delivered. If Japan had declared war or delivered some forceful ultimatum before instigating any attack against any US locale, I don't think we'd look at it in quite the same way that we do today.

[CaptainHaplo]

Dowly - I am half German. (I am also part Scottish and part Irish - which makes for a really mean drunk!) My mother is a naturalized US citizen. I talked to an old man years ago. His wife, he and I started talking at a veterans gathering on a previous Pearl Harbor day. When the subject of Pearl came up, he shied away from it - and I politely steered the discussion elsewhere. His wife stopped us both, looked at him and said "Tell the young man." - and he did.

He was an Austrian Jew, 14 or so at the time when Pearl happened. He was "living" in a slave camp. He did nothing but work 18+ hours a day, to crawl back to his "bed" and do it all over again. He was ready to die, mentally. I forget the term he used, but he told me about a person who was in the camps too - a person who would collaborate with the guards to gain favor, but they would also do what they could to look out for their people. He had tears in his eyes when he told me about what happened. One day, as he was slaving away, this person came up to him, tapped his shoulder, and after making sure no guards were around - opened his coat to show him the front page of a newspaper. All he was able to read was the headlines - and they said "JAPAN attacks PEARL HARBOR, US declares war on JAPAN and GERMANY.". He broke down at that moment - and then composed himself. He slowly told me what that meant. It meant that he had hope. Before he saw that - he had none. When he saw it - he knew that we were coming. Hope is a powerful thing. That hope - helped keep him and others alive. 3 years later - the camp he was in was liberated. In that time frame - the people helped each other simply by reminding them of hope - we were coming. And ultimately, we did.

Make no mistake - had it not been for Pearl Harbor - the US entrance into the war would have been drastically delayed - if not inevitably delayed. I do not claim we won the war on our own, to do so would dishonor the memory of so many other peoples that made just as large sacrifices. But without that event - its very likely that you would be speaking German right now.

Yes - it changed the world. On a number of fronts. Some for the better - and perhaps some for the worse.

But I can tell you this - there is no doubt that for many men - the world changed that day, in many ways.

[CaptainHaplo]

I was listening to the radio this afternoon to a local show that I like. Its usually local politics, but on historical dates, the host will spend a good hour dwelling on the lessons of history.

Today, as he often does, he had Dr. William Forstchen on. As a local professor, as well as well known author, Bill brings a knowledgable insight and seriousness to the subject.

The entire "Day of Infamy" speech was replayed, as well as a number of historical news announcements of the attack. The phones were flooded, as they always are on historical days with people filled with gratitude and honor for those of the Greatest Generation.

Just goes to show that while the "mainstream" can gloss over it - there is a lot of everyday people who enjoy taking a moment to remember the heroes of the time.