The Creation vs Evolution debate thread...

11-30-09, 04:45 PM

Quote:

I do not believe in random chance

Throw a dice.

AVGWarhawk · 11-30-09, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Throw a dice.

Excellent!

Platapus · 11-30-09, 06:26 PM

I can recommend doing some research on "The Heike crab" as an example of human caused "evolution".

If man can influence such a change in a few hundred years, it is not unreasonable to expect nature to influence other similar changes over millions of years.

Shearwater · 11-30-09, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aramike

It has everything to do with random chance and nothing to do with intelligent design.

And that random chance is the link that could be interpreted in a metaphysical way. Or the mere fact that there is existence in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Throw a dice.

God doesn't play dice!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Platapus

I can recommend doing some research on "The Heike crab" as an example of human caused "evolution".

If man can influence such a change in a few hundred years, it is not unreasonable to expect nature to influence other similar changes over millions of years.

Another example is the peppered moth.

Platapus · 11-30-09, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shearwater

Another example is the peppered moth.

I had totally forgotten about that moth. Good example!

Iceman · 12-01-09, 01:30 AM

Kind of weird reading this type of thread again....

I believe WWII happened..I believe the Civil War happened...I believe most of what has been written historicaly about world events going back to scrolls written by Muslims,Buddahists or Jews.....the telling of stories by people is what life is all about.

Every person makes his own choices and beliefs based on his own life experienices and what ideas he chooses to entertain.

Personally I love hearing stories of others....I have met 3 people in my life now who have been clinically dead and the most recent was hit by a drunk driver,head cracked open...was dead on the table....was told he'd never walk etc etc....he walks into our meeting every day.

Point I am trying to make is the stories past down through history sure are going to have embellishments along the way but to discount things merely on the basis of them sounding unbelieveable is kinda selling yourself short.People have some KICK ASS stories ...true stories.

I believe Lazurus was raised from the dead...I believe in the power of faith in Christ almost enough to walk on the water with him...I also find it kinda of funny when people throw around figures like billions of years like that is some "Big" thing ...to God a being who claims immortality what is time?

Time is a frame of reference in imortality....evolution I believe is just a word describing Gods work anyways ....my personal theory....

One is forced to live on some faith....our soldiers have faith in theyre brothers to watch they're backs...I also have faith that the sun will rise tommorrw...if it does not then I have faith in God that the reason it is not, is that it may be time for a change.

Well have a good day peeps.

Enjoy the ride.

onelifecrisis · 12-01-09, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shearwater

God doesn't play dice!

Heh, very apt. Even Einstein was blinded by religion.

Letum · 12-01-09, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Heh, very apt. Even Einstein was blinded by religion.

Nooo!
Einstein's 'god' is a metaphor for, or a personification of the
meta-physics that fall into philosophy, rather than science.
He is saying that the laws of the universe can no be random, not that
there is a god and he doesn't gamble.

Besides, despite Copenhagen, Einstein may well be right. it is empirically
impossible to find evidence of true randomality as opposed to hidden
non-random mechanisms.

Skybird · 12-01-09, 06:53 PM

Einstein, religion, God. I think this late letter by him clears any questions on the issue. And yes, the letter is authentic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Guardian 13th May 2008

An abridgement of the letter from Albert Einstein to Eric Gutkind from Princeton in January 1954, translated from German by Joan Stambaugh. It will be sold at Bloomsbury auctions on Thursday

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. Einstein

... I read a great deal in the last days of your book, and thank you very much for sending it to me. What especially struck me about it was this. With regard to the factual attitude to life and to the human community we have a great deal in common.

... The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These subtilised interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.

In general I find it painful that you claim a privileged position and try to defend it by two walls of pride, an external one as a man and an internal one as a Jew. As a man you claim, so to speak, a dispensation from causality otherwise accepted, as a Jew the priviliege of monotheism. But a limited causality is no longer a causality at all, as our wonderful Spinoza recognized with all incision, probably as the first one. And the animistic interpretations of the religions of nature are in principle not annulled by monopolisation. With such walls we can only attain a certain self-deception, but our moral efforts are not furthered by them. On the contrary.

Now that I have quite openly stated our differences in intellectual convictions it is still clear to me that we are quite close to each other in essential things, ie in our evalutations of human behaviour. What separates us are only intellectual 'props' and 'rationalisation' in Freud's language. Therefore I think that we would understand each other quite well if we talked about concrete things. With friendly thanks and best wishes

Yours, A. Einstein

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...ience.religion
translated from the german

onelifecrisis · 12-02-09, 02:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

Nooo!
Einstein's 'god' is a metaphor for, or a personification of the
meta-physics that fall into philosophy, rather than science.
He is saying that the laws of the universe can no be random, not that
there is a god and he doesn't gamble.

Oh, I was just being flippant. I know he didn't subscribe to any regular religion like Christianity or whatever. I heard that he defined God as "the natural laws of the universe" or something like that? Perhaps I should have said he was blinded by his "faith".

Quote:

Besides, despite Copenhagen, Einstein may well be right. it is empirically
impossible to find evidence of true randomality as opposed to hidden
non-random mechanisms.

Interesting, I didn't know that. But that doesn't make him right, when you consider what he was saying. Wasn't he was disagreeing with the theories of quantum mechanics? But they actually hold water whether or not the (apparent) randomness seen in the behaviour of sub-atomic particles really is random (as opposed to being governed by hidden non-random mechanisms) don't they? Making him wrong either way.

antikristuseke · 12-01-09, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shearwater

God doesn't play dice!

How would you know?

Nicolas · 12-21-09, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Throw a dice.

i was talking about the topic...
This world, and animlas, plants, couldnt exist the way it is by random chance. C'mon, you write so smart. If someone disarm a tv and throw it in a box, add or substract millions of components shake it for 1000 billion years, when it will get functional again? thats my point.

if you give more than a dime to what the bible says, Romans 1:18 talk about:

From heaven God shows how angry he is with all the wicked and evil things that sinful people do to crush the truth. 19They know everything that can be known about God, because God has shown it all to them. 20God's eternal power and character cannot be seen. But from the beginning of creation, God has shown what these are like by all he has made. That's why those people don't have any excuse. 21They know about God, but they don't honor him or even thank him. Their thoughts are useless, and their stupid minds are in the dark. 22They claim to be wise, but they are fools. 23They don't worship the glorious and eternal God. Instead, they worship idols that are made to look like humans who cannot live forever, and like birds, animals, and reptiles.
24So God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. 25They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God's creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen.

Nicolas · 12-21-09, 06:45 AM

About natural selection, who select a better way to evolve? if there is some sort of thing that do natural design, that thing is wiser and smarter than ourselves.

An animal has a mutation, that mutation, results to be useful, the 'natural selection', the will to live or i dont know decides that this thing must be part of the genoma, so the next generation will have it, but no... to make a nice change to evolve, it will need a lot of small error or random chances, who decides that 1000 little random chances to put them together and finish with a 'evolution'.

I'm using logic, instead of participate in the disscussion, i could talk about God himself, but that preaching right, and is not welcome? or yes?.

Morts · 12-21-09, 06:53 AM

you have yet to proove that evolution doesnt take place nicolas,
and quoting the bibles prooves nothing

Nicolas · 12-21-09, 08:18 AM

Qouting your theory prooves nothing... i want proof...

scientific prooves
of the creation of the universe by itself, and the existence of smart people only because a random thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morts

you have yet to proove that evolution doesnt take place nicolas,
and quoting the bibles prooves nothing

11-30-09, 06:26 PM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,439 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	I can recommend doing some research on "The Heike crab" as an example of human caused "evolution". If man can influence such a change in a few hundred years, it is not unreasonable to expect nature to influence other similar changes over millions of years. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

12-01-09, 01:30 AM	#6
Iceman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mesa AZ, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,253 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Kind of weird reading this type of thread again.... I believe WWII happened..I believe the Civil War happened...I believe most of what has been written historicaly about world events going back to scrolls written by Muslims,Buddahists or Jews.....the telling of stories by people is what life is all about. Every person makes his own choices and beliefs based on his own life experienices and what ideas he chooses to entertain. Personally I love hearing stories of others....I have met 3 people in my life now who have been clinically dead and the most recent was hit by a drunk driver,head cracked open...was dead on the table....was told he'd never walk etc etc....he walks into our meeting every day. Point I am trying to make is the stories past down through history sure are going to have embellishments along the way but to discount things merely on the basis of them sounding unbelieveable is kinda selling yourself short.People have some KICK ASS stories ...true stories. I believe Lazurus was raised from the dead...I believe in the power of faith in Christ almost enough to walk on the water with him...I also find it kinda of funny when people throw around figures like billions of years like that is some "Big" thing ...to God a being who claims immortality what is time? Time is a frame of reference in imortality....evolution I believe is just a word describing Gods work anyways ....my personal theory.... One is forced to live on some faith....our soldiers have faith in theyre brothers to watch they're backs...I also have faith that the sun will rise tommorrw...if it does not then I have faith in God that the reason it is not, is that it may be time for a change. Well have a good day peeps. Enjoy the ride. Last edited by Iceman; 12-01-09 at 01:40 AM.

12-21-09, 06:45 AM	#13
Nicolas Commander Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Uruguay Posts: 453 Downloads: 196 Uploads: 4	About natural selection, who select a better way to evolve? if there is some sort of thing that do natural design, that thing is wiser and smarter than ourselves. An animal has a mutation, that mutation, results to be useful, the 'natural selection', the will to live or i dont know decides that this thing must be part of the genoma, so the next generation will have it, but no... to make a nice change to evolve, it will need a lot of small error or random chances, who decides that 1000 little random chances to put them together and finish with a 'evolution'. I'm using logic, instead of participate in the disscussion, i could talk about God himself, but that preaching right, and is not welcome? or yes?.

12-21-09, 06:53 AM	#14
Morts Admiral Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,395 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	you have yet to proove that evolution doesnt take place nicolas, and quoting the bibles prooves nothing