Why try the 'terrorist' in public courts?

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Terrorists are criminals plain and simple,

Unbeleavable.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Unbeleavable.

Why ?

The US is not special as far as being a target for terrorism. We in europe had had to contend with terrorism for decades, in Ireland, in France, in West Germany, in Italy, in Spain and you know what ? The people that make bombings, etc... in the end are criminals with a political agenda. Thats what terrorists are. And the precise way to treat them is to treat them as criminals, have a trial and convicted them when they are caught.
Put them in prison for the necessay time.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Why ?

The US is not special as far as being a target for terrorism. We in europe had had to contend with terrorism for decades, in Ireland, in France, in West Germany, in Italy, in Spain and you know what ? The people that make bombings, etc... in the end are criminals with a political agenda. Thats what terrorists are. And the precise way to treat them is to treat them as criminals, have a trial and convicted them when they are caught.
Put them in prison for the necessay time.

Excellent points. I fear that many of my fellow countrymen feel that because this involves "America" somehow it is different.

Treat them as the hirabi they are. Break their perversion of Islam to their followers. Expose them as mufsidoon instead of jihadists

That is how we need to fight them.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Treat them as the hirabi they are. Break their perversion of Islam to their followers. Expose them as mufsidoon instead of jihadists

That is how we need to fight them.

This doesn't work against the Islamist mindset. They don't care how they are perceived in the Western mind or point of view. They are at war with us, and have let us know so in very explicit terms. Nation state or not, this is an enemy that we are fighting on many different battlefields. These are no simple criminal acts. This show trial proves nothing to no one. And is in no way "fighting" against the very core of the jihadists. They are not deterred or demoralized by public trials in NYC. In fact, it gives them a stage with which to spout their political angst against the USA. I'm amazed that some of my fellow Americans refuse to call this what it is (war) because it simply doesn't involve "nation states". War has been declared against us. Anybody who believes 9/11 was a simple case of homicide is incredibly deluded.

Plus nobody has adequately answered the question of just how we get them a jury of their "peers". Or the possibility of what I posted about potential Muslims on the jury that refuse to convict a fellow Muslim in an "infidel" court....resulting in hung jury...and no conviction. That scenario seems very plausible to me.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Plus nobody has adequately answered the question of just how we get them a jury of their "peers". Or the possibility of what I posted about potential Muslims on the jury that refuse to convict a fellow Muslim in an "infidel" court....resulting in hung jury...and no conviction. That scenario seems very plausible to me.

Don't you trust your legal system?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

Don't you trust your legal system?

Yes, when the venue is appropriate for it. In this case it's not. The military justice system is also a part of our legal system. And that's the appropriate place for these foreign terrorists.

The question then turns to you.....don't you trust our systems of legal justice? Including military justice? And don't you fear the potential problems with turning over to the public court system foreign terrorists at war with us, who are implicated of orchestrating an act of war against our nation, and plan to use any public court trial as a soapbox circus trial? Admitted by their defense teams. And where finding a jury of "peers" is going to become a difficult prospect itself. You can't see problems here?

[Sea Demon]

For what it's worth....Gallup shows most Americans want military trial for Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/124493/Am...px?CSTS=tagrss

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Yes, when the venue is appropriate for it. In this case it's not. The military justice system is also a part of our legal system. And that's the appropriate place for these foreign terrorists.

The question then turns to you.....don't you trust our systems of legal justice? Including military justice? And don't you fear the potential problems with turning over to the public court system foreign terrorists at war with us, who are implicated of orchestrating an act of war against our nation, and plan to use any public court trial as a soapbox circus trial? Admitted by their defense teams. And where finding a jury of "peers" is going to become a difficult prospect itself. You can't see problems here?

Whats the appropriate place for domestic terrorists ?
What about american born muslims that embrace the jihad against western values. Are they foreign or american terrorists ? Are they criminals or enemy combattants ?
What about american citizens that convert to the muslism faith and embrace the jihad, what to do with them ? As I remember there was a case of an american citizen that fought along the taliban in afghanistan. He was captured and then ? Is he an enemy combattant ?

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

The question then turns to you.....don't you trust our systems of legal justice? Including military justice?

I trust it indeed. But I think that this whole issue is a litmus test.
It is the very thing that terrorism is targeted against - the belief in freedom and its ability to deliver justice, even under extraordinary conditions as these.
The aim of terrorists isn't to destroy the US physically. It is - as the name implies - about spreading fear and terror, and one of Roosevelt's great for freedomrs is now more important than ever: Freedom of fear. I'm not talking about a naive happy-go-lucky mentaility. But abandoning basic legal principles (i.e. a formal and regular trial) would elevate the terrorists to a status they don't deserve. They must not be given the feeling that, just because they have done an outrageously heinous and despicable crime, they are outside - and in their view above - the American legal system (be it civil or military). I believe devoutly in the United States' legal system and its ability to deliver justice in this case, and if given a chance to prove that it works even in such an extaordinary matter, I'm confident that it will succeed.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

This doesn't work against the Islamist mindset.

And what are your citations or qualifications to be able to state that?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Platapus

And what are your citations or qualifications to be able to state that?

Historical precedent. We've put Muslim plotters on trial before, and it never slows them down. One can argue that it emboldens them, as there really is no severe consequences for their actions. Oh, they may have to spend the rest of their lives with 3 hots and a cot on the US taxpayers dime. Big deal. Historically, they actually continued to plot after one shot at the WTC.....and then a few years later, 9/11 occurs. What are your qualifications other than your own opinion?

[Sea Demon]

And the circus begins.......

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125928395078865773.html

Originally Posted by goldorak

Whats the appropriate place for domestic terrorists ?

Irrelevant to this situation.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

What are your qualifications other than your own opinion?

Not a whole lot.

-28+ Years experience as a geo-political analyst (military and civilian)
-Masters Degree in Political Analysis
-Within one year of completing my Doctorate in international policy analysis
-Written two theses on Islamic governance. My dissertation will also be Islamic focused.
-For the past five years, my professional focus (as an FFRDC) has been on Islamic Issues. I brief military and civilian leadership on "such matters".

This is not a hobby with me, nor a passing interest. This is literally what I do for a living. This is one of the reasons I seldom opine on such matters on this board.

The complexities of these issues, is staggering. As a result of my education and experience, one thing is clear. I have just barely scratched the surface of these issues.

That is why I like to call people out when they make short generalizations. The issue is far too complex for sound bytes.

The reason I don't get too upset, is this is just a internet chat board, not a serious analytical forum.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Unbeleavable.

So what is terrorism then, other than a criminal act? It certainly can't be an act of war, since only countries can declar and wage wars. Don't confuse the legal status with the moral status here. Not one single person on this forum has any doubt as to the latter.
I'm just curious to hear your definition.

Do not allow terrorism to undermine your legal system.