They want to see Buckingham Palace become a mosque

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Quite a few Islamaphobes here, I'm pretty dissapointed I guess.

Dann wein doch!

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Dann wein doch!

Speaking of selective quoting Skybird, What was all that about? ^^

I agree that radicalism is the plague of this earth, anyone who lean towards any type of extremism, not only have severely clouds their own judgment, but in come cases it seems to completely disable the part of their brain that can think obectively altogether.

If a person puts too much energy and pride in to something. It makes it almost impossible for that person to admit they are wrong - because the stronger you views become, the harder you fall when they fail you.
And what happens when these people can no longer win an argument with words?
Usually they block there ears and walk away from what they dont want to hear.
But some times they will become abusive and resort to violence.....

Imho - we should keep these folks away from weapons and main stream politics

[NeonSamurai]

Just a quick comment, but the comparison between the Torah and old testament is not exactly correct. They are not the same thing. For one thing the stories (genesis, etc) are more an oral history of a people. Also there are translation problems since ancient Hebrew doesn't have any vowels, which caused trouble. The emphasis placed on sections of the Torah is also rather different. Last Jews have never realty considered the Torah to be an absolute (unlike many Christians and Muslims with their books). Its meanings, laws, etc have been debated for thousands of years. The Hebrew deity also was never really considered a vengeful god (unless you want to go back to the very early origins of the religion) but more of a balancing force, an eye for an eye or in another word, karma.

Originally Posted by Skybird

The old testament has more to do with the old abrahamic religion of the Jews, than with Jesus' teachings. And that is the reason why the old testament is showing as many examples of hate and intolerance and calls for murder and genocide as does the old abrahamic religion

Other then the stories/history part (which isn't taken overly seriously, and come from ancient history), I would like to know where the Torah commands Jews to commit hate, genocide, and murder?

[Skybird]

NeonSamurai,

I readily admit my knowledge on Judaism is not as much as what I know on islam and Christianity and the church. and I certainly have not read the Thora - nor have I referred to it!

However, before Jesus lived, there was only Judaism, and the texts on Jesus were not written earlier than two generations after his assumed death when he is said to have been crucified (something Islam denies to have happened, and since Islam sees Jesus not as God's son but as a high ranking prophet, this christian claim about crucification is one of the three things islam takes extremely queer about the christians, the other two being their suspicious concept of the divine trinity, and the upholding of a book/the bible - meaning a priests' hierarchy and dogma - instead of the idea, which means a profaning of the content, in their view, and they are probably right there).

As I see it, the Bible'S stories of the times before jesus base on the Abrahamic god of the Jews and represent some kind of "reformed", or chnaged/altered form of Judaism. the history of Judaism is a history of constant conflict and war, isn't it, the whole region there still lives and dies by this old tradition's "heritage", and the ,otives for this often were religious. Do nyou want to say the many tribal wars and conquests had nothing to do with relgious beliefs of theirs?

I did not refer to the Thora, becasue I do not know much about it, I do not even know if it is a changed, modernised version today or by content is still the same old thing they already carried in front of their army three thousand years ago (I fear the latter, when seeing orthodox Jews and their habits). But the old stories of the bible are basing on the Judaic concept of a god - as much as I know that is a god as tyrannic and punishing and psychotic like the god of the old testament, which makes sense if both traditions are linked, yes? I think here is a reason for the proverbial hairplitting philosophic thinking - and intellectual superiority - in Judaic tradition, for which already the pharisees in Roman times and earlier were famous: it really needed some tricks and efforts to re-interprete such a brutal deity and change it's image into a man-loving, forgiving, kind old grandfather who takes care for his children. I must admit I tend to see both the church'S and the Jews image of a god like this as truly schizophrenic: celebrating a god that rescues somebody's life after having send him the car that rolled over him, who tests his creations by asking them to sacrifice their children or wiping out opposing people/tribes, and promises salvation and forgiveness - not in life, no, not earlier than after death.

Anyhow, the church's dogma as represented in the full bible moved beyond the Judaic tradition, and Jesus teachings as included in the Gospels moved even further beyond the church'S dogmatic teaching. Muhammad also based on the abrahamic tradition, but took it and implemented changes to it that had the primary purpose of making muhammad's version of abrahamic traditon different to that of the Jews that at that time he already must have hated very much after his collision with their theologicans who showed him how little his insight into Judaism was - a big, narcissistic offence for him. I am convinced that Islam'S hostile attitude especially towards the Jews is nothing else but a echo from Muhammad'S narcissim that was offended so very much by the Jews not accepting him as somebody of equal woprth and qualification.

From all these four (!) traditions, I see the teachings of Jesus as the most advanced, and being the one of the four that is almost completely disconnected from the meaning of the old Abrahamic cult the other traditions (church, Judaism and Islam) are basing on.

Originally Posted by Skybird

From all these four (!) traditions, I see the teachings of Jesus as the most advanced,

I see them all as crap, equally so. What do you think about that?

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by Skybird

I readily admit my knowledge on Judaism is not as much as what I know on islam and Christianity and the church.

No offense meant but I can tell you don't.

As I see it, the Bible'S stories of the times before jesus base on the Abrahmaic god of the Jews and represent some kind of "reformed" form of Judaism.

The two religions are very different, and bare very little resemblance to each other. Later Christians (Greeks mostly) borrowed from the Torah, and in several cases screwed up the meaning of what they borrowed. Christianity has almost nothing to do with Judaism other then having had borrowed from their writings.

the history of Judaism is a history of constant conflict and war, isn't it, the whole region there still lives and dies by this old tradition's "heritage".

Sure, there is a lot of conflict and war. It is an oral history of the Israelites, and there was a lot of warfare and violence during those times (as with everywhere else). There were also times of peace, prosperity, and innovation (such as during the reign of king Solomon). As for what is happening now in Israel, it is hard to have peace when certain groups keep sending suicide bombers and mortar/rocket attack the bordering cities and towns. Its not that the people of Israel don't want peace, but they are not going to leave Israel to get it (which is what the other side wants). So the fighting continues.

I did not refer to the Thora, becasue I do not know much about it. But the old stories of the bible are basing on the Judaic concept of a God - as much as I know a god as tyrannic and punishing and psychotic like the god of the old testament, which makes sense if both traditions are linked.

That interpretation of the Judaic god is the one from their earliest history, when Yahweh was the fire god of the mountain. Also a lot of the earliest stories (genesis, the flood, etc) are also borrowed from other religions of the time, and altered to fit. The slightly more modern interpretation is that G*d is a balancing force, that every action taken by G*d in the stories was to balance out man's actions. For example god destroyed the pursuing army of the Pharaoh at the Red Sea, to balance out the killing of all the first born by the Pharaoh's order.

I think here is a reason for the proverbial hairplitting philosophic thinking in Judaic tradition, for which already the pharisees in roman times and earlier werew famous: it really needed some tricks and efforts to re-interprete such a brutal deity and chnage it's image into a man-loving, forgiving, kind old grandfather who takes care for his children.

I don't believe most Jews view G*d in that way, but more of an enigma that we try to understand, but cannot ever understand. the Pharisees and then Rabbis, have continued to debate and ponder the meanings behind the texts, but it is not hair splitting as you put it. Philosophically they do believe that G*d does care about it's creations.

I must admit I tend to see both the church'S and the Jews image of God like this as truly schizophrenic, celebrating a god that rescues somebody's life aftr having send him the car that rolled over him, and promises salvation and forgiveness - not in life, but after death.

Your mixing up Christianity and Judaism. There is no specific salvation or heaven per say in the Jewish tradition, no hell either. That is an unaddressed enigma. The view is that Jews have a purpose in life, to bring the divine to earth, and bring earth to the divine, or achieve balance between the two.

From all these traditions, I see the teahcings of Jesus as the most advanced, and being the one of the four that is almost completely disconnected from the meaning of the old Abrahamic cult the other traditions (church, Judaism and Islam) are basing on.

A lot of those teachings are not exactly new, and many were lifted from Jewish thinking (also from the Greek gnostics and others), many can't even be directly attributed to Jesus. To be a good Jew, you are to lead a good life, do your work in the world, do your mitzvah or blessings (good deeds basicly), find balance in your life, and show gratitude to G*d for what has been given you.


Honestly Skybird, you don't realy know the first thing about the old Abrahamic cult as you put it. Unfortunately neither do most others, which I think contributes to so much anti-semitism in the world.

I myself am not Jewish, though my stepfather was. I am agnostic, and was raised as one by my mother. I have to say though, if I had to choose one of the three, I would easily choose to be Jewish then the others, far more thought and philosophy, and much less dogma and mishegas.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

G*d

Why? Out of curiosity.

[NeonSamurai]

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

Why? Out of curiosity.

In the Jewish tradition one is not supposed to name the all mighty in word or on paper, so in writing when using the word god they put G*d. In prayer they make reference to but do not directly name.

Since I was talking about Jewish ways I included that in my post.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by NeonSamurai

No offense meant but I can tell you don't.

No offense indeed, but for the most: true.

The two religions are very different, and bare very little resemblance to each other. Later Christians (Greeks mostly) borrowed from the Torah, and in several cases screwed up the meaning of what they borrowed. Christianity has almost nothing to do with Judaism other then having had borrowed from their writings.

Well, I did not say they are similiar, but the old stories in the bible are soemwhat influenced by the judaic tradition. You mention yourself the fore god in the mountain somwhere below. and that is the same god concept you find in the old testament. In both traditions, there is a reference to abraham being a fundament, cutting it short here.

Sure, there is a lot of conflict and war. It is an oral history of the Israelites, and there was a lot of warfare and violence during those times (as with everywhere else). There were also times of peace, prosperity, and innovation (such as during the reign of king Solomon).

Yes, but the 12 israeli tribes, at least I read that ands saw that in TV, have also behaved as conqueror and even rivals at times, and based on the divine promise and command to move to Kanaan. The landtaking in Kanaan took place under expulsion of foreign tribes there around the 14th or 13th century before Christ. This is being called for both in the Judaic Tarnach, at least I read, and is decribed in the Bible as well. The Israelites were not always fighting wars of defence only, nor were they always only the vicitms of foreign agression. Sometimes they also were the attackers and conquerors.

As for what is happening now in Israel, it is hard to have peace when certain groups keep sending suicide bombers and mortar/rocket attack the bordering cities and towns. Its not that the people of Israel don't want peace, but they are not going to leave Israel to get it (which is what the other side wants). So the fighting continues.

the Israeli present today is a chpater in nitself that we must not touch upon here. Also, it certainly is not as simplistic as you make it appear here. And this I say although for the most I defend Israel's policies.

That interpretation of the Judaic god is the one from their earliest history, when Yahweh was the fire god of the mountain. Also a lot of the earliest stories (genesis, the flood, etc) are also borrowed from other religions of the time, and altered to fit. The slightly more modern interpretation is that G*d is a balancing force, that every action taken by G*d in the stories was to balance out man's actions. For example god destroyed the pursuing army of the Pharaoh at the Red Sea, to balance out the killing of all the first born by the Pharaoh's order.

He also terrorised a father by commanding him to kill his son in order to see if he would obey, admitted, he stopped him short before the deed, but the terror for the father was real. What for? He caused a global genocide because his creation - made bis his own hands - was not like he wanted it to be: obedient. Why hasn't he created man accordingly in the first? This whole theory of God setting up challenges to man to test him, simply makes no sense and simply illustrate a truly psychotic, blood-thirsty behavior. A cynic who has intentionally designed man to be able to fail, calling that "free choice" and then punish man for being like he designed him to be - but wanting to be worshipped as a man-loving benefactor. That is not only cynical, that is sadistic. the bible holds quite many stories illustrating this kind of divine cyncism and sadism and thirst for penalty and blood. Man gets punished for God having created him the way he did. Great.

I don't believe most Jews view G*d in that way, but more of an enigma that we try to understand, but cannot ever understand. the Pharisees and then Rabbis, have continued to debate and ponder the meanings behind the texts, but it is not hair splitting as you put it. Philosophically they do believe that G*d does care about it's creations.

Yes, but to come to that image of a god while basing on the fire god just memntioned above - that really needs some form of creative thinking. That'S what I mean. that modern Judaism tends towards what you just described, was my novice view, too, although I did base on a limited fundament only, on some literature on Kabbala (ynd you know better than I do, I assume, how compex and difficutl a theme that is), when studying some interlinks between Kabbala and Tarot in certain esoteric systems.

Yes, Skybird knows and does Tarot. Now that will earn me some jokes, will it!

Your mixing up Christianity and Judaism. There is no specific salvation or heaven per say in the Jewish tradition, no hell either. That is an unaddressed enigma. The view is that Jews have a purpose in life, to bring the divine to earth, and bring earth to the divine, or achieve balance between the two.

Reminds of some more esoteric christian traditions, and the Christian mystics.

A lot of those teachings are not exactly new, and many were lifted from Jewish thinking (also from the Greek gnostics and others), many can't even be directly attributed to Jesus. To be a good Jew, you are to lead a good life, do your work in the world, do your mitzvah or blessings (good deeds basicly), find balance in your life, and show gratitude to G*d for what has been given you.

If that is all there is, one would wish that only more religious people would be like that.

Honestly Skybird, you don't realy know the first thing about the old Abrahamic cult as you put it. Unfortunately neither do most others, which I think contributes to so much anti-semitism in the world.

I never dealt explicitly with it in books on Abraham, but only indirectly in books about Islam, and Christian history (as matching the timeframe of Islam). But I am aware of these deficits of mine, at least. that'S why you will not read me writing about Judaism and Abraham as explicitly as I do about the relgion-atheism-confrontation, the church, Jesus or Islam.

Maybe I should add one or two books on Judaism and its theology and history, in the future. But currently too many other books are waiting.

In the Jewish tradition one is not supposed to name the all mighty in word or on paper, so in writing when using the word god they put G*d. In prayer they make reference to but do not directly name.

Really that is a modern affection that has spread from the more fundamentalist elements of judaism in the west.
Traditionally there are 7 names, and God or G*d ain't one of them.

Done with you. And woootch - to the ignore list your name goes.