The Creation vs Evolution debate thread...

[CaptainHaplo]

Sailor Steve-

Regarding the moon - the 750 Million year age is the absolute maximum possible, meaning evolution would not have had the time to occur as evolution postulates. This simply shows that the evolutionary timeline is flawed. However, there is nothing that states that God, in his wisdom, did not create the moon somewhat closer to the earth, a few thousand years ago, which is the view put forth by the young earth theory.

Aramike - Oil wells.

The density does have a place in the equation, but porous rock under significant pressure usually over time slowly loses its structural integrity (the barriers between can break down). Rock under enough pressure will crumble, while cork, in your example - under the pressure of champagne, is "springy" enough to actually compress and thus INCREASE its density (and thus the tensile strength of the barriers between the pores) as well as collapsing the pores themselves, limiting the pressure that can be applied to them. Rock has no such ability, nor is it under the constraints of pressure from a stronger, outside source, unlike a cork that is held in place by the constraints of the stronger glass that surrounds and compresses it. Its also fair to note that the pressure igneous rock is subjected to is much greater than that of cork sealing a bottle. While at first glance its a nice picture, a closer look shows your comparing apples to oranges, and not apples to apples, which is why the comparison is not vaild.

On that same note - Sailor Steve, the young earth theory puts the formation of such oil wells - and indeed the formation of oil in its many parts of the world, at between merely 3-4 thousand years ago. In fact, the mere presence of oil in the great quantities it is seen actually are one of many evidences of a worldwide, bilbilcal flood, as described in the time of "Noah". This time frame would explain why there is still pressure on the wells.

Aramike - on the mito-eve - I am not sure I understood your counterpoint. I understand your saying its invalid - but your explanation of why wasn't something I could follow. Could you explain it in a step by step process so I can evaluate it? I am not trying to be difficult, but there must be facts in the argument I am not aware of that invalidate the concept, because what you said was as clear as mud to me.

Lastly - to tribesman - since I rarely am going to stoop to acknowledging your inane comments. You again prove your lack of openmindedness and forthrightness considering the whole thing section on "dragon bones", you noted it specifically references the animal in question and identifies it as a T-rex. The original author substituted terms, which you well knew, but instead wanted to pick and choose to try and discredit an entire arguement. You also have a PM regarding this.

I really like some of the points brought up - but so far, all I have seen is "counterpoints" to why a young earth can't be accurate - but not a single post pointing out why evolution is a fact. Cmon people - a debate is an open forum to present both sides, not just poke holes in one. Lets have some arguements that point out the other side. If no one puts any out, then some may conclude that the "evolution" camp has no proof at all......

Oh - Platypus - no I don't think creationism and evolution must be distinct and seperate views personally.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I really like some of the points brought up - but so far, all I have seen is "counterpoints" to why a young earth can't be accurate - but not a single post pointing out why evolution is a fact. Cmon people - a debate is an open forum to present both sides, not just poke holes in one. Lets have some arguements that point out the other side. If no one puts any out, then some may conclude that the "evolution" camp has no proof at all......

Are you trying to shift the burden of proof? Regardless I would like you to adress my points in post #48. But just to humour you I will provide you with several pieces of evidence for evolution and common decent.

1. Endogenous retroviruses
Endogenous retroviruses are molecular remnants of a past parasitic viral infection. Occasionally, copies of a retrovirus genome are found in its host's genome, and these retroviral gene copies are called endogenous retroviral sequences. Retroviruses (like the AIDS virus or HTLV1, which causes a form of leukemia) make a DNA copy of their own viral genome and insert it into their host's genome. If this happens to a germ line cell (i.e. the sperm or egg cells) the retroviral DNA will be inherited by descendants of the host. Again, this process is rare and fairly random, so finding retrogenes in identical chromosomal positions of two different species indicates common ancestry.
Figure 1Human endogenous retrovirus K (HERV-K) insertions in identical chromosomal locations in various primates (Reprinted from Lebedev et al. 2000, © 2000, with permission from Elsevier Science)

2. Transitional forms some creationists claim do not exist, incomplete list in following article.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comd..._intermediates

3. Anatomical vestiges
Some of the most renowned evidence for evolution are the various nonfunctional or rudimentary vestigial characters, both anatomical and molecular, that are found throughout biology. A vestige is defined, independently of evolutionary theory, as a reduced and rudimentary structure compared to the same complex structure in other organisms. Vestigial characters, if functional, perform relatively simple, minor, or inessential functions using structures that were clearly designed for other complex purposes. Though many vestigial organs have no function, complete non-functionality is not a requirement for vestigiality.
For example, wings are very complex anatomical structures specifically adapted for powered flight, yet ostriches have flightless wings. The vestigial wings of ostriches may be used for relatively simple functions, such as balance during running and courtship displays—a situation akin to hammering tacks with a computer keyboard. The specific complexity of the ostrich wing indicates a function which it does not perform, and it performs functions incommensurate with its complexity. Ostrich wings are not vestigial because they are useless structures per se, nor are they vestigial simply because they have different functions compared to wings in other birds. Rather, what defines ostrich wings as vestigial is that they are rudimentary wings which are useless as wings.

These are just three, there are more, loads more. Now for some evidence that the Earth is older than what you claim it is.

1. Radiometric dating

The oldest rocks which have been found so far (on the Earth) date to about 3.8 to 3.9 billion years ago (by several radiometric dating methods). Some of these rocks are sedimentary, and include minerals which are themselves as old as 4.1 to 4.2 billion years. Rocks of this age are relatively rare, however rocks that are at least 3.5 billion years in age have been found on North America, Greenland, Australia, Africa, and Asia.

While these values do not compute an age for the Earth, they do establish a lower limit (the Earth must be at least as old as any formation on it). This lower limit is at least concordant with the independently derived figure of 4.55 billion years for the Earth's actual age.

The most direct means for calculating the Earth's age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the Earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-207/Pb-204.
Most of the other measurements for the age of the Earth rest upon calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are expected to have formed with the planets but are not geologically active (and therefore cannot erase evidence of their formation), such as meteorites.

Figure 2


2. Ice core dating

The Vostok Ice-Core was collected in East Antarctica by the Russian Antarctic expedition. The Vostok Ice-Core is 2,083 meters long and was collected in two portions: 1) 0 - 950 m in 1970-1974, 2) 950 - 2083 m in 1982-1983. The total depth of the ice sheet from which the core was collected is approximately 3,700 meters.

The ice core was sliced into 1.5-2.0 meter segments. A discontinuous series sampled every 25 meters and a continuous series from 1,406 to 2,803 meters were then sent in solid form to Grenoble, France for further analysis.

At Grenoble the ice was put into clean stainless steel containers. The samples were crushed and then melted with the gases given off collected and saved for further analysis. The melt water was tested for chemical composition and then electrolysised.

The methods used in the determination of the ages include 18O/16O isotopic analysis, independent ice-flow calculations, comparison with other ice cores, paleoclimatic comparison, comparison with deep sea cores, 10Be/9Be isotopic analysis, deuterium/hydrogen isotopic analysis, comparison with marine climatic record, CO2 correspondances between dated ice-cores and CO2 correspondances with dated oceanic cores.

The results determined from these various samples were consistent between the continuous and discontinuous slices within the sections that overlapped. They were also consistent with Greenland ice-cores, other Antarctic ice-cores, dated volcanic records, deep sea cores, and paleoclimatic evidence.

While unable to provide specific dates (within a millenia), the analysis show definate evidence of the the last two ice ages. Using the methods listed above the bottom of the ice-core was laid down 160,000 +- 15,000 years ago. It should be noted that all of the methods listed above were consistent with the above results.

From the data gathered from the Vostok ice-core indicates that the minimum age of the earth is 160,000 +- 15,000 years. Furthermore there exists approximately 33% of additional ice below the core sample which would hold a disproportionate number of years due to thinning of the ice layers under the tremendous pressure of the ice above it.

To maintain an age for the earth of 50,000 years, one would need to describe a mechanism that allows more than 2 false ice layers to form per year. It should be noted that one also needs to describe why this mechanism has ceased to function in historic times since the Vostok ice-core demonstrates a number of the historically recorded volcanism at the correct periods of time.

Refrences
1. C. Lorius et al., NATURE 316 (1985) 591-596.
2. F. Yiou et al., NATURE 316 (1985) 616-617.
3. J. Jouzel et al., NATURE 329 (1987) 403-408.
4. J.M. Barnola et al., NATURE 329 (1987) 408-414.
5. van Nostrands' SCIENTIFIC DICTIONARY
6. THE ENCYCLOPEDIA OF SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
7. E. Wolff, GEOGRAPHICAL MAGAZINE 59 (1987) 73-77.
8. Julie M. Palais OCEANUS 29 (Winter 86/87) 55-60.
9. W. Dansgaard et al., SCIENCE 218 (1982) 1273-1277.
10. C.U. Hammer et al., NATURE 288 (1980) 230-235.


I could go on here but I am tied and in need of sleep.

[Shearwater]

"Philosophendampfer"

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

"Philosophendampfer"

Sommekampfer.

2. Transitional forms some creationists claim do not exist

You waste your time with a scientific approach.
Forget mammal/reptile, bird/reptile transitional forms.
Think Beaver, it is a mammal that is also a fish, plus of course the Puffin which is a bird that is also a fish.

But on a more serious note, in relation to points 2&3 in your post. Salamanders, surely they alone would be enough to further frustrate a creationist.
Though the best way to frustrate a creationist is with the scripture they claim is correct.

[Stealth Hunter]

I lol'd at this:



Next time go to the doctor, you moron. Well- there won't be a next time, but the moral of the story is that the supernatural will not save you.

[Platapus]

I wonder if a "soul" is only what we perceive in other people.

Meaning that even if a person dies, their "soul" (our perception of them) continues.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You waste your time with a scientific approach.
Forget mammal/reptile, bird/reptile transitional forms.
Think Beaver, it is a mammal that is also a fish, plus of course the Puffin which is a bird that is also a fish.

Ohyeah I know all about those "transitionals" some creationists ask for, even though if we did find a ****ing crocoduck that would falsify evolution on the spot.