They want to see Buckingham Palace become a mosque

[Letum]

The best example of micro nations we have is the Greek polis.
All kinds of government worked somewhat well there; democracy,
oligarchy, dictatorship, aristocracy.
However, with so many national egos, there was not much peace
between the states and they where easily taken advantage of. (i.e. the
Athenian Empire).

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Pretty wild!

Isn't this treason? Why don't the British just kill these guys?
Where are all the rednecks when you need them?

I hate stuff like this.
These guys are just a bunch of idiots,
But we dont kill them for the same reason we dont kill Christian/Jewish/White supremecy extreamists (all have backward veiws and retarded Ideas such as this.)

We have freedom of speech..... remember?

The fact is there are no more islamic extremists in the uk than there are
of other types of extremist. Unless they are making bombs or buying guns. we ignore them like we ignore all stupid people.

I have met many Muslims, a couple are best friends of mine, they are just ordinarny folks trying get by in life, without hurting themselves or anyone else.
Stuff like this makes them even more furious than us - because

1) It give their relegion a bad name.
2) it makes the more ignorant Non Muslims judge all Muslims as evil conspritors
3) They also see it as scare mongering by the media - why give these morons any air time on the news? when it achives nothing other than to incite racial hatred.

a Quoted response from one of my Muslim friends when he watched the above link.

"UH If they dont like here they should piss off back home and stop whining"

I agree with him...

Here is a question that anyone with a racial or relegiouse predjudice should ask them selves:
"How many of these people do i actually know?"
Answer is most likley to be: none.
people are scared of what they dont understand.

[Skybird]

Or people are scared because they understand it all too well. You seem toi imply that critical attitude towards islam must be equated with prejudice, that'S how I got oyur last paragraph. Actually, that statement is a prejudice of yours in itself - against people criticising islam.

and to answer your question, yes, I knew and knwo Muslim people. And some where like you described. Others were of the like I - and others - attack them for. Most living in the West, however, form a silent, never caring majority that is sticking to itself and isolates itself as best as it can, and that is not just my subjective imoression and personal experience, but that is data from various sociological reasearches on these matters, the latest in Germany has been published just ten days ago. All this is not a very constructive way to try integrating oneself into a new living place one has moved to.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You seem toi imply that critical attitude towards islam must be equated with prejudice.

Duh. Read what you just wrote. Then look up "prejudice" in the dictionary! I know English isn't your first language but still...

Most living in the West, however, form a silent, never caring majority that is sticking to itself and isolates itself as best as it can, and that is not just my subjective imoression and personal experience, but that is data from various sociological reasearches on these matters, the latest in Germany has been published just ten days ago. All this is not a very constructive way to try integrating oneself into a new living place one has moved to.

I'm sick of hearing this BS from you. I dated a Muslim girl for a year, used to 'hang out' at her mothers house and sometimes at the houses of various aunts she had. They all lived in frickin Muslimville where the generation above us all wore Saris and spoke Urdu or some sh!t... and our generation all wore jeans and t-shirts and spoke English. You should spend less time reading reports and more time in the real world with your eyes open.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Skybird

and to answer your question, yes, I knew and knwo Muslim people. And some where like you described. Others were of the like I - and others - attack them for. Most living in the West, however, form a silent, never caring majority that is sticking to itself and isolates itself as best as it can, and that is not just my subjective imoression and personal experience, but that is data from various sociological reasearches on these matters, the latest in Germany has been published just ten days ago. All this is not a very constructive way to try integrating oneself into a new living place one has moved to.

Sure, but the same can be said for half the imigrants in western countries.
they like to keep them selves to them selves. Why? because they want to accociate with people who have the same things in common, same veiws and beliefs etc. isnt that human nature?
Hell here we like drinking in the Pub, muslim friends will come, but they cannot drink alchahol - so its not the same for them. Granted its there choice, but they always feel more comfortable meeing in coffee shops and cafes etc.

So What do you do as a nation? In the Britain we have become a bit hypocrital in our attitudes.
On the one hand we have always said to them, "you can come here an be free to practice you beliefs & culture.
Then post 9/11 - that turns into: actually, you have to intergrate in to our society and adopt british values....

Come on... You can have it one way or the other not both.

Way too much public and media hysteria over terrorism. then we start waving out flags, like bunch of brainlwashed patriotic zombies... (little different from the terrorists themselves in my eyes)

then we start giving up civil liberties to our govenments in exchange for more security,
We Lose many poor young souls from our armed services and spend billions of $$ / £ on two wars, that have done little other increased hatred toward the West... hence increasing the chances of terrorism.

Have the terrorist won? Not exactly no...., but they sure have done a pretty damn good job in screwing us over, we are not as 'free' as we were in 2000 thats for sure...
I blame the terrorists 60% for carrying out the evil deed, but then I blame our selves 40% for our foolish reactions, we should know better, all of us.

I f**king give up on mankind sometimes I tell you.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Sure, but the same can be said for half the imigrants in western countries.

No, it cannot. We have very very less problems with immigrants from non-Muslim countries. I often said that. Even those groups that have somewhat a history to form some kind on insider-only societies (Chinatowns ) nevertheless usually try to establish good relations and open contact to their hosting nation. eurppean immigrants are not our problem. Nothamericans are not the porblem. not Vietnamese, Chinese, Japanese, Koreans. Not Southamericans. In the sopecial case of Jews, they have totally sunk into our societies and molten with them again, and before the war even were the motor of blossoming in European matropoles, like Berlin.

whenever I see reports on troubles, read sociometric data about crisis in ethnic subcommunities, chances are EXTREMELY high that it involves Turks, Albanians, Pakistani, Algerians, Moroccans, Saudis.

No other immigration groups demand so noisily so wide reaching special rights and special recogntiion and claim the role of being victims of racism so readily, like muslim immigration groups. No other immigration groupos for siloated sub-cultures and parallel societies so systemtically, like uslim immigrants. no other immigration group actively and willingly refuses to integrate itself, like muslim groups often do. we have seen that even porven in reaserach statistics by university seeveral times in theb past 3-4 years. I linked I think 2 British studies showing that in the past 4 years, and just days ago the third or 4th of such a study in the past 3-4 years has been released in Germany. that is basing not on single individuals only, but on groups. the group forms the rule. The individual may present the exception from the rule - or not.

and another insight that gets statistically boosted since some time: that assuming we would fund our shaking social system in europe by importing immigrants, can already be shown by numbers black on white to be a self-deception. Becasue most immigrants fromMuslim countries are not well-trained members of specialised labour branches, with educated social backgrounds in their families. Instead, most are poor, uneducated members of social low class, while Muslim managers and entrpreneurs are the total exception from the rule. Statistics show that from the social low class we allow in en masse, only very very few manage to raise in social status and education. Mayn even actively resist that. The conclusion is that all in all we do not gain wins but that it puts additional stress on our social systems that we do not select more carefully whom we let in and whom we sent back, and that the assumption the presence of unselected imigration would secure our social safety fopr our aging socieites - is an urban myth. again: most immigration from Muslim coutnries is not the social middle class or upper class, but most is lower class, poor, unedcuated, ressisting to integration, and with very very bad chnaces to ever make a social raise.

I knew some Asiens in earlier years, at university, and afterwards. Most were students, but some were immigrants from Japan and china. The contrast to Muslim immigration in general - could not be any clearer.

Originally Posted by onelifecrisis

You should spend less time reading reports and more time in the real world with your eyes open.

You believe you know me and my information background quite well, eh? I have had my share of experiences with staying in Muslim countries, and for not just summertime holidays you know. Some of my former colleagues are social workers in Frankfurt and Berlin, I still get insider feedback from them. I have read a whole lot of literature on the issues with Islami immigrant groups, and I have had my share of private experience with Islam and Muslims in Germany as well. Some experiences were pleasant if I met the right indioviudual. Most were not. The death threats I received in written mail two years ago probbaly were the most unpleasant of them all.

You you dated a girl and met her family for one year. I don't know how often somebody todl me ont his board that he knows that guy living in the room at the end of the floor and that is usually os very kind. Sorry dude, I think my persective exceeds yours by far.

I think you people always thinking and assuming just the best about Islamic ideology withouit ever having studied it in detail, and assuming any motives of immigrants to be only the most noble, really have tunnel-eyed views in order to exclude any perspective AND FACT that does not match your desired peace-no-matter-the-cost attitude. and when this leads as far that even the findings of sociological research gets refused for illustrating not the truth that you want to see proven, then it really becomes absurd.

In the end, you will get the messy outcome that you wanted, and deserve.

[onelifecrisis]

Originally Posted by Skybird

You believe you know me and my information background quite well, eh?

That's a pretty ironic statement, given what you went on to post later. But first...

Originally Posted by Skybird

I have had my share of experiences with staying in Muslim countries, and for not just summertime holidays you know. Some of my former colleagues are social workers in Frankfurt and Berlin, I still get insider feedback from them. I have read a whole lot of literature on the issues with Islami immigrant groups, and I have had my share of private experience with Islam and Muslims in Germany as well. Some experiences were pleasant if I met the right indioviudual. Most were not. The death threats I received in written mail two years ago probbaly were the most unpleasant of them all.

My words clearly fell on deaf ears. What do the Muslims in Muslim countries have to do with the secularisation of Muslims in western countries?

"Inside information" from your friends in Frankfurt and Berlin? Books on ideology? You just don't get it do you?

I am at least glad to hear you can look past your own BS long enough to form friendships with some Muslim people. As for the death threats... wow. Out of all the Muslims I know and have known in my life, I've never once received a death threat, nor has anyone I know for that matter. Interesting that you have.

Originally Posted by Skybird

You you dated a girl and met her family for one year. I don't know how often somebody todl me ont his board that he knows that guy living in the room at the end of the floor and that is usually os very kind. Sorry dude, I think my persective exceeds yours by far.

Yer... nice try, but I'm not biting that one.

Originally Posted by Skybird

I think you people...

Classic!

Originally Posted by Skybird

...always thinking and assuming just the best about Islamic ideology withouit ever having studied it in detail, and assuming any motives of immigrants to be only the most noble, really have tunnel-eyed views in order to exclude any perspective AND FACT that does not match your desired peace-no-matter-the-cost attitude. and when this leads as far that even the findings of sociological research gets refused for illustrating not the truth that you want to see proven, then it really becomes absurd.

You pulled that whole paragraph right out of your arse. It demonstrates only one thing: that you have pigeonholed my comments based on your perception of me as a person, probably without so much as a second thought. Presumably you will now go back to preaching your anti-Islam BS, as unaware as ever of your striking resemblance to the extremists you find so concerning?

I wonder, if I found enough reports and case studies saying that reports and case studies and heresay and books on ideology are no substitute for actual experiences... would it make any difference?