RSRD Comments

[AVGWarhawk]

Popeye the Sailor was a great cartoon. I grew up watching Popeye.

I knew I'd catch hell for that, I just wasn't a fan...

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

In short, yes, convoys were not the same type seen in the ATO. 2-5 ships. Some escorted. Some not. Later in the war the ships would hug the coast hoping the shallows would protect them.

You know, that's exactly what I'd like to see then. If your average patrol had few contacts, well that's perfectly fine by me. I want a sim, not continual target practice.

Originally Posted by Sevrin

That said, I do sympathize about the easy pickings, despite running these mods. There are several places one can go and sit...and just wait for the ships to roll into the choke points almost 'assembly line' syle. There have been times I simply passed up ships or saved and exited because it was 'tedious' having to get in position and start the tracking over again immediately after sinking several others...

That's exactly my feeling, except I don't find I even need to go sit somewhere. Perhaps people tend to play sailing out of pearl, and I have to admit that I haven't tried that, but just trying to get to your patrol zone in the Asiatic fleet is a little ridiculous as there's always crap moving around between the islands. Half the time I run out of torpedoes before I even get to my assigned patrol area...

The merchant just keep rolling into your sights individually without so so much as an auxillery sub chaser in a 100 mile radius. With no risk, it's seriously just target practice.



Somone mentioned balance, I quite frankly have to say that RSRD's balance is horrible compared to the stock campaign. I'm a big proponent of the mods in general, but you know what? In the stock campaign I do encounter individual ships, but it's not 99% of the time like in RSRD. In stock, I've encountered *many* small convoys with just a few ships, the occaisional rare large convoy, and hunter killer groups. While the stock campaign throws way too many contacts at you, they are at least a better mix, and if you ask me, probably more in line with what a commander could encounter during a career percentage wise. Just guessing, but the game spams the contacts mainly to keep the action going, as yes, a lot of players would complain if there where no contacts. RSRD seems to reduce the frequency of the major convoys to historical levels which in my book is great. The trouble is that small 2 or 3 ship merchant groups where cut completely, the hunter-killer are gone as well, and the individual ship contacts where not reduced in proportion.

Anyways, what I'm getting at with all of this:

In 2 years of war, I have exceeded by a factor of 6.75 Fluckey's JANAC score of 95,360 without getting attacked by an enemy escort even once. In fact, aside from that invasion force and 2 harbor raids, I have not even seen a single enemy warship. Something is very fundamentally wrong with that picture. Since I wrote the above, I've uninstalled RSRD and started my first patrol with TMO's base campaign (slightly modified stock I believe). I've already been attacked by an enemy hunter killer group just days out of port (the Philippines). It was ineffective, but at least the enemy tried, adding that element of risk, and that was certainly more *interesting* than just shooting merchants "assembly line style" as Sevrin puts it.

[Radio]

The very first mod I installed was RSRD, simply because my very first warship contact ever in the game was a Japanese task force of 7 (!!!) BB, 6 DD and ~5 CA accompanied by 2 or 3 merchants which managed to cruise around at 6 knots only, driving in wild circles like being drunk, without the slightest coordination and accidentally ramming one of their DD and sinking it.

That's when I thought: "Ugh, this is so pathetically wrong, this needs a mod to improve it."

Installed RSRD and was happy

But yes, convoys should be more frequent, it's late '42 in my game and I haven't seen a single one.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Collisions between enemy vessels are fairly rare, and rsrd has nothing to do with that, it's just the AI.

Those circles where almost surely evasive action because you got spotted. If you ever manage to find a convoy in rsrd, I can guarantee that they will do the same thing, as it's just the way the AI works.

The convoy composition, while slightly odd, isn't impossible. Suppose that they where going to bombard the hell out of something and those merchants where hauling extra fuel and ammo. I can really think of maybe a dozen reasons why a few merchant ships might tag along with a task force.

[Ducimus]

Since this is relatively off topic, All i can say is,

- Jap interrogation reports ive read online indicate japan ran convoys as large as 11 to 25 ships. How often these occured is debatable without detailed movement records. I prefer to generalize and say it did happen, but wasn't as common as 2 to 6 ship convoys.

- TMO has entirely too many convoys running late war. (this is being fixed)

- JANAC sucks. Between the "United States Strategic Bombing Survey" and Joint Army Navy Assessment Committee, I get the impression there was some serious inter-service rivalry as to who has the bigger peen. If you read the bombing survey, you swear the interrogation officers were flyboys looking to puff out their chests, and any answer with "submarine" wasn't the answer they were looking for.

In O'kane's 'Clear the Bridge' he describes instances of 2-3 ship convoys, search planes and at least some escorts. And although they did encounter the odd single ship, it was usually hugging the coast, zig-zagging, etc...

I agree the easy lone merchants need to be cut down, and more asw units added, even if relatively ineffective (as in reality).



After I had learned manual targeting, imposed restrictions upon myself (not using the noob cannon, shooting planes, etc.) I figured the ridiculous amounts of tonnage would go down, and it did, but NOT by a substantial amount. Under any circumstances, it is STILL too easy to take home the goods after each patrol if you are the least bit cautious.

As it is, just lay off a bit N of Cam Ranh bay and/or the Celebes choke point and watch the traffic roll in, blast with impunity and repeat... Maybe the solution is mods that further reduce any and all traffic, or as RR puts it, 'put the paper bag over our heads'...

If it was me, I would seriously up the patrol craft and DE's

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I prefer to generalize and say it did happen, but wasn't as common as 2 to 6 ship convoys.

Which is entirely the problem. I don't want more big convoys than is realistic, but I've not seen any 2-6 ship convoys at all. RSRD just spams single ships clipping along at 10 knots, not even bothering to hug the coastlines or zigzag. I would personally *love* to have a large portion of my engagements be something like 2-8 merchants escorted by 0-4 escorts. That would be enough to make a certain amount of variety in your engagements.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

JANAC sucks. Between the "United States Strategic Bombing Survey" and Joint Army Navy Assessment Committee, I get the impression there was some serious inter-service rivalry as to who has the bigger peen. If you read the bombing survey, you swear the interrogation officers were flyboys looking to puff out their chests, and any answer with "submarine" wasn't the answer they were looking for.

Not really interested in debating the merits of that specific report, but every post war report I have ever seen, which should be taken seriously, regardless of the unit type over claimed their effectiveness and misidentified enemy units. I don't care if it's tanks, bomber gunners, submarines, fighter pilots, or grunts. The story is the same across the board regardless of branch of service or country. Granted some armed forces where worse than others, but still.

Again, I don't blame the people who made the claims, but rather that's just the nature of war. As an individual your situational awareness only extends so far, and is further hindered by the chaos of battle, and people are more inclined to believe that they had good effect on their desired target than not.

Whether mowing down lone merchants in the pacific was correct or not, it certainly does not make compelling gameplay...

[Ducimus]

Well, i feel i am a bit out of place making any commentary on RSRD since i haven't looked at it at all, I'm too busy with my own work, and don't really have time to see what others are up to, and im certainly not going to comment on my own work in a thread that is supposed to be about RSRD.

That said, my understanding of RSRD, is the convoys are based on the Tabular Record of Movements. (TROM for short). Last i heard, every convoy in RSRD is unique. They don't respawn. Your either at the right place at the right time, or your not. How RSRD handles single merchant's i don't know. My guess is there might be a low respawn rate on those since your cheif complaint is too many single merchants. At any rate, if my understanding of the mod is correct, then RSRD's approach to traffic is unique, both literally and figuratively. It's sort of a sim within a sim.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

The convoy composition, while slightly odd, isn't impossible. Suppose that they where going to bombard the hell out of something and those merchants where hauling extra fuel and ammo. I can really think of maybe a dozen reasons why a few merchant ships might tag along with a task force.

Replenishment at sea during World War II was limited, for the most part, to refueling operations and whatever small amounts of cargo could be transferred by high line. Loading high caliber shells was a delicate operation usually done in the placid waters of a port. Plus, no commander wanted his high speed bombardment or carrier force forced to run at 12 knots so a few merchants or tankers could tag along. That's why replenishment oiler TFs usually operated at a distance in the backfield of an operation with their own dedicated escort. (The oiler Neosho and destroyer Sims at the Battle of the Coral Sea being one small example.)

As the war progressed the high expenditure of aircraft ordnance by fast US carrier tasks forces became a problem during the last year of the war when air groups aboard the fast carriers began to expend more bombs than could be carried aboard ship for the sustained ground attacks now being conducted. By 1945 methods of transferring cargo between AEs (cargo ships converted to carry ammunition) and the flattops under way, which made use of the standard winches, booms, and cargo nets normally carried by the AEs were developed. The devastated Japanese navy never progressed to this point though.

[Bubblehead1980]

I like RSRD but agree, way too many lone merchants.In the begin of the war before US subs were seen as a real threat, lone merchants or unescorted pairs were common.As war went on this became less and less common, esp if a mid or large sized ship.

My solution to this in TMO was to open up the merchant layers with the mission editor and add escorts to some, esp the tankers.So got no more 10,000 ton tankers traveling from Java to Tokyo alone.Left some single but added escort to others, that way, less chance of running into singles.Fun to encounter small convoys of 1 merchant and 1 escort, this was pretty common.Sometimes if its abig important ship, 1 ship to escorts.Or two merchants one escort plus a plane assigned to the group.Really adds to the game.

In RSRD I tried this but turns out you can't change anything because it upsets everything else for some reason.I made some changes, it reset the convoys respawn from 0 to 24, never could get it back to 0.Not sure why but can't modify it, i was about this to say the least.

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Bubblehead1980

In RSRD I tried this but turns out you can't change anything because it upsets everything else for some reason.I made some changes, it reset the convoys respawn from 0 to 24, never could get it back to 0.Not sure why but can't modify it, i was about this to say the least.

I'm guessing that Lurker doesn't always use the mission editor. Some changes you have to do by hand or via an automated script OUTSIDE the mission editor. The Mission editor enforces a ruleset, which isn't always desireable. Believe it or not, Wordpad is a real handy tool in the campaign scripters toolbox. I've acutaly set my windows file association so that MIS files are associated with wordpad. Just be careful to save the file in the same format as when you opened it. (ASCII text as i recall) I'd use notepad but it won't load large ascii text files. So wordpad works nicely. Great for global changes rather then having to edit every single random group in the editor. (be careful when doing this as well). As an aside, DO NOT use Word.

[ColonelSandersLite]

Originally Posted by Torplexed

Replenishment at sea during World War II was limited, for the most part, to refueling operations and whatever small amounts of cargo could be transferred by high line. Loading high caliber shells was a delicate operation usually done in the placid waters of a port. Plus, no commander wanted his high speed bombardment or carrier force forced to run at 12 knots so a few merchants or tankers could tag along.

Good points. Something to think about on the speed issue though is that it depends on the merchant as well. I think the large modern tanker has a speed of 22 knots for example. Still, well done all around.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

That said, my understanding of RSRD, is the convoys are based on the Tabular Record of Movements. (TROM for short). Last i heard, every convoy in RSRD is unique. They don't respawn. Your either at the right place at the right time, or your not.

Which is cool. Any rational person who's more interested in a sim than an arcade game should be able to appreciate that.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

How RSRD handles single merchant's i don't know. My guess is there might be a low respawn rate on those since your cheif complaint is too many single merchants. At any rate, if my understanding of the mod is correct, then RSRD's approach to traffic is unique, both literally and figuratively. It's sort of a sim within a sim.

The respawn rate certainly isn't low. One mission I got had me off the coast of japan for a week. Several Large modern composites and Large modern tankers just went right past me heading SW one after another.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

I'm guessing that Lurker doesn't always use the mission editor.

Yeah, in the readme he mentions something about that.

OT:
BTW, your evil escorts nailed me just a few minutes ago. Heading to base (java) in my S-boat after my first patrol, some destroyers caught me at close range at night in the java sea. Got as close to the bottom as I dared and tried to get away. After evading them for around 15 mins or so, I screwed up and turned the wrong way, which resulted in destroyed stern batteries and a flooded engine compartment. I was sinking so I had to choose between either bottoming to make repairs or trying a surface withdrawal. I figured bottoming gave me the better chance of survival as the visibility topside was as good as it gets at night, but they got me after around 15 minutes or so. Pretty intense. Believe it or not, that's the first time I've been KIA by depth charging. Most likely would have outlasted them if it wasn't for that long stint in RSRD where there just where no escorts to avoid. Ah well, time to start a new career again...

[Radio]

Originally Posted by ColonelSandersLite

Collisions between enemy vessels are fairly rare, and rsrd has nothing to do with that, it's just the AI.

Those circles where almost surely evasive action because you got spotted. If you ever manage to find a convoy in rsrd, I can guarantee that they will do the same thing, as it's just the way the AI works.

The convoy composition, while slightly odd, isn't impossible. Suppose that they where going to bombard the hell out of something and those merchants where hauling extra fuel and ammo. I can really think of maybe a dozen reasons why a few merchant ships might tag along with a task force.

I agree, the merchants make complete sense, especially if those were tankers.

However I hadn't been spotted, but used the Free Camera for looking around. The composition of the fleet was rather unrealistic imho, simply too many BB units on one spot, it felt as if the whole japanese fleet was there.

The distances between the ships were much too narrow, too. But the main thing that troubled me was the fact that it looked like some programmer tried to show off all his fancy units in one big parade

FWIW: The second mod I installed was the realistic maneuvering ships mod, because I torpedoed a stationary CA in a harbor and saw how it jumpstarted to 30knots right after been hit by the first torpedo, which meant that the other torpedoes all missed...