Turkey: an ally no more

[nikimcbee]

Jar my memory how all of the Turks wound up in Germany anyway. We talked about it once in German class, but that was a long time ago. More or less, it was a labor shortage (from the War) wasn't it?

More or less, it was a labor shortage (from the War) wasn't it?

No the guest worker program came with the worker shortage from partition coupled with the economic boom in the early 60s.

[baggygreen]

I've only ever considered Turkey was viewed as an ally of convenience. Their embracing of their more traditional counterparts should come as no surprise to anyone.

Ever so slightly off topic, but a thought came to me last night and I want to run it past you for some thoughts.

Islam is where christianity was 500 or even 400 years ago. Note I'm not calling them backward, so please hear me out.

• their religion is the preeminent driving force behind all they do.
• women for the most part have so few rights compared to menfolk
• the 'enlightened' clergy decide whats best for the populace (somewhat generalised, i know)
• islam is expanding from its traditional base to encompass more and more of the world. It is imposing itself on the populations of the new lands it is encountering, much like those in the new world and asia.

It stands to reason I suppose, that Islam is acting in a similar fashion to christianity, albeit several centuries later - both stem from judaism, and islam came several centuries after christianity.

What it also does is provide for an interesting discussion I think on the course or evolution of religion, which i suspect I'll cover in a university paper early next year.

thoughts?

It is an inherent claim of Islam that wherever it puts its foot on the ground, that ground by that now is of Islam's and shall NEVER be given up again.

I can see why you like Daniel Pipes, you both come from the same tree.

I've only ever considered Turkey was viewed as an ally of convenience.

All allies are allies of convenience really.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

Jar my memory how all of the Turks wound up in Germany anyway. We talked about it once in German class, but that was a long time ago. More or less, it was a labor shortage (from the War) wasn't it?

Not really labour shortage in general, but shortage in lowe-end jobs that Germans did not wish to work in themselves. However, the expectation was from the beginning that the "guest workers" indeed would be temporary guests only, and would not stay forever. And that'S how it was with most of the Italians, Greeks and Yugoslavs that came. Most Italians meanwhile went back, since long, so did most of the Greeks and Yugoslavs. Also, especially with the italioans we got alomng very well, so with the Greek. The cultural closeness shows there, that simple. These three nation'S guests also fitted in nicely nevertheless, and did not cause Germany any troubles. Those who stayed, are fully integrated and nobody has antipathic sentiments against them. The GDR's guest workers were not coming from turkey, but Vietnam. But again, except the famous Vietnamese cigarette crime gangs, the vietnamese do not give us any headaches and live unobtrusively amongst us. - The Turks however never meant to got back, and they stayed for themselves very much from the beginning on. They resisted to integrate themselves and they saw little need to learn the language. and very early on their nation demanded special deals on them from the German governments, that nobody else ever got or even has demanded.

Helmut Schmidt is maybe the most respected politician alive in Germany today, a specimen of this nowadays almost extincted species of true "statesmen"; although he is very old, he still gets heared, and usually his political analysis still are sharp like laserbeams and simply brilliant and right up to the point, and his moral assessements do not lack in value compared to his political comments. But even he admits that the German policy on guest workers was a terrible mistake, and a total misjudgement by the German government, and he confesses to be guilty to have contributed to this mistake himself while having been chancellor. He one called the Multi-Kulti dream of germany to be the biggest illusion since the war. He said that especially with regard to the Turks.

It is an inherent claim of Islam that wherever it puts its foot on the ground, that ground by that now is of Islam's and shall NEVER be given up again. While the single individual may not think and be concerned about these longterm policies that derive from Islamic dogma, these individuals neverthelss get used as kind of foot soldiers by those being aware of the inner dogma of Islam and actively trying to spread it in the world. the Turkish religion ministry certainly always has been amongst these background players. turkey also wanted to find relief from its high population pressure by forming kind of colonies in europe that both help to spread turkish influence in europe and help to enforce turkish entry into the EU - due to the already existing huge Turkish communities especially in Germany. The desire of Turkey to become strong, is always a two-sided thing: it derives from the Islamic dogma, but also from a strong inner-Turkish nationalism of old style and fashion. Nationalism and national pride, going hand in hand with Islam, are very strong in Turkey. I have several not so pleasant memories of it from my times there.

Ironically, the guest worker thing has reversed totally. Today, we do not get guest workers from Spain anymore. But Germans move to Spain and Holland and Denmark and even Poland to find work there that they could not find in Germany, or with only too miserable a payment.

Well mobility is all nice and well, but if you have tro be ready to crisscross a whole continent for a job, then imo something is wrong.