My recent experience of the UK National Health Service (long post)

I do not see this as a Christian dealing at all. Not sure how that got in the mix.

It's internet bingo, all that was missing was communist , liberal media and constitutional.
So close but no win yet.

As for the "christian" thing, that carpenter fellow was quite clear about taxes, he also had a lot to say about those who broadcast how religious they were and how responsible and generous they had been with their lives.
It appears the old adage is very true, the louder the "faithfull" shout the less their faith really is.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It's internet bingo, all that was missing was communist , liberal media and constitutional.
So close but no win yet.

As for the "christian" thing, that carpenter fellow was quite clear about taxes, he also had a lot to say about those who broadcast how religious they were and how responsible and generous they had been with their lives.
It appears the old adage is very true, the louder the "faithfull" shout the less their faith really is.

Never heard of that old adage.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by MothBalls

Bullchit. The only thing beyond their control is their own spending habits.

What about the millions of Americans who work hard and can't afford insurance, but don't qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP? Do they not exist despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary? Or is it perhaps easier to blame the individual rather than admit the system is flawed? Not everyone without health insurance is walking around with Prada clothes on and driving a $100,000 Benz.

Never heard of that old adage

Its common over here, then again we have quite a history of very "religious" people. It must have been common in that carpenters time too as he tells tales of it.
So as a general guide when someone introduces "as a christian..." into a topic (especially where it seems irrelevant)there is a fairly high chance that they are really about as Christian as a toe nail clipping from bhuddas left foot.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

What about the millions of Americans who work hard and can't afford insurance, but don't qualify for Medicaid or SCHIP? Do they not exist despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary? Or is it perhaps easier to blame the individual rather than admit the system is flawed? Not everyone without health insurance is walking around with Prada clothes on and driving a $100,000 Benz.

I have never had a job that did not provide some form of health insurance. I would not accept a job that did not have a program for health insurance. If an individual does take a job that does not offer health insurance that is their choice. No one forced this person to take the job.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I have never had a job that did not provide some form of health insurance. I would not accept a job that did not have a program for health insurance. If an individual does take a job that does not offer health insurance that is their choice. No one forced this person to take the job.

Being able to pick and choose which job to take is a luxury that many people these days don't have.

[XabbaRus]

Originally Posted by MothBalls

(not directed at you specifically, mainly Americans in general)
It's called being a responsible adult. Before buying a luxury car, iPhone, new computer and racking up 25,000 in credit card debt, people should have savings/investments/portfolios to back themselves up for an extended period of time. Too many lay blame on "circumstances beyond their control". Bullchit. The only thing beyond their control is their own spending habits.

Too many in the US live from check-to-check and can't even go a few weeks without a paycheck. Those are the people I have no sympathy for. I don't feel obligated to provide support for stupid people. Rainy days happen to all of us at one time or another. Not my fault if someone isn't ready for one. The ones who collect unemployment for 36-53 weeks, now will also collect heath care as well, on my dime.

Trust me Even though I am earning above the national average with my mortgage, taxes, food prices and bills there ain't much left over to save. So I can't help taking it personally as I think you would consider me a stupid person should I lose my job.

What is left goes on activities for my kids. I'd love to save more each month but it isn't always that easy. I don't have a luxury car, in fact I have a hand me down sub sub compact which I'd love to change but can't and the bigger ticket items were presents.

You know we'll have to agree to disagree but I'll keep my system with its faults rather than yours. Sorry but even with the minority who rip off the system I'll take mine. It's called social responsibility.

[CaptainHaplo]

I took a pay cut earlier this year to keep my job. My lady was able to find a gig after losing her position, also at less money. Still we were able to make it.

Know what gets my goat? I work 40+ hours a week (as much as my employer will allow), she has even brought work home on the weekends.
Now we have had additional costs crop up because the kids have started school. Child care in afterschool for 2 children through the YMCA. Cost is an extra 520 to 650 per month. Since school has started, that has cut into our finances drastically, and has us now digging through our savings. We both are looking to see if maybe some part time work is available to help out. Do you see me in here moaning about it? Do you see me saying that the government owes me childcare? Or how about just the extra money my insurance is costing me to keep my family covered? No - you don't.

The government, and the citizens of this nation, don't owe me anything of the sort. Do I expect a bailout or feel I need to whine? No, many other people are in the same boat as I am, and yet here comes the government telling me that because I work, because I have a job, because I have insurance, I need to PAY MORE for everyone else. I am watching what we have worked for be slowly wittled away while I am pushing through this mess and doing all I can to keep my family above water, and I have the government trying to add more to my burden.

Then, on top of it, for those who say no to this, we are called every name under the sun, labeled racists, bigots, even "religious fakes" all because we don't want to be drowned.

Well - and I say this in the most heartfelt way possible to Government.

NO!


I will continue to bust my arse to do for my family, and if I have anything to spare when my kids are taken care of, I might spare it for someone who needs it. But I'll fight like hell to keep the government from drowning us so it can take from my family and give it to someone else.

As for the religious question - Christianity was brought into the discussion by Skybird, whom I believe would be more than happy to disclaim any association with the christian theology, though I think he has stated its ideals are reasonably worthy most of the time. Though I am not suprised some would use any opportunity to attack or demean those of faith.

*Editted to insure clarity of meaning*

As for the religious question - Christianity was brought into the discussion by Skybird

It was Sailor Steve.

though I think he has stated its ideals are reasonably worthy most of the time.

The ideals are indeed worthy, though scripture doesn't seem to support the "christian" message some are portraying.

Though I am not suprised some would use any opportunity to attack or demean those of faith.

Actually it is questioning the portrayed "faith" here not those of faith. Consider the humble widow in the synoptics and the "worthy" men who broadcast their "rightousness".

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Trust me Even though I am earning above the national average with my mortgage, taxes, food prices and bills there ain't much left over to save. So I can't help taking it personally as I think you would consider me a stupid person should I lose my job.

What is left goes on activities for my kids. I'd love to save more each month but it isn't always that easy. I don't have a luxury car, in fact I have a hand me down sub sub compact which I'd love to change but can't and the bigger ticket items were presents.

You know we'll have to agree to disagree but I'll keep my system with its faults rather than yours. Sorry but even with the minority who rip off the system I'll take mine. It's called social responsibility.

Know what I do? I opened a savings account at the bank. I then signed up for online banking for this account. Every Friday I simply do an electronic transfer of $10-$20. Then forget about. Account does not exist unless monies are need above and beyond the normal expenditures. Really, you will not miss that $10.00 every week. At the end of 52 weeks you have $520.00 in savings. Does not seem like much but it is $520.00 you can lean on if needed. PS, I also to the same for my girls. $10.00 each every friday. Take me less than 3 minute to sign in and transfer. Some accounts do it automatically for you.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Being able to pick and choose which job to take is a luxury that many people these days don't have.

How does BS grab you? The picking and choosing come down to two things...willing to work any job and will it pay more than my unemployment? Come on man, my wifes side of the family has more people working the system then I care to count. These are people who have been offered good jobs but they would prefer to sit at home collecting unemployment and have no health insurance that would be offered as part of the employment package. There is one person who works in my wife's aunt's house, her one cousin who did not qualify for unemployment checks by the state. She found a job at Best Buy that offers health care. She likes the job. She is covered for health. She is paying taxes.

[XabbaRus]

I understand what you are saying AVG and I fully agree, just at the moment its not working.

CaptainHaplo I'm not here whining I'm just pointing out it isn't all that simple.

There is also no need to reply with "Bite Me" in big red letters.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It was Sailor Steve.

Yes it was, and I apologize. My intent was to look a the philosophy of both sides of the private vs government argument, and the conservative vs liberal argument as it pertains to this question. My comments didn't really concern Christianity in and of itself so much as the 'Religious Right', who involve themselves in politics and espouse what seems to be a radical conservative agenda, when I had thought they would be more liberal in outlook.

But that argument was answered, and I wasn't the one who started any diatribes. Still, I'm sorry it turned in that direction.

My comments didn't really concern Christianity in and of itself so much as the 'Religious Right', who involve themselves in politics and espouse what seems to be a radical conservative agenda, when I had thought they would be more liberal in outlook.

Yep, weird isn't it . But it's nothing new which is why it is so easy to draw on the teachings they claim to follow.
If however someone could find a nice bit of scripture that said....... "give the government its tax money unless you think that the government is wasting its tax revenue and you worked hard for that money" Or "if you have two cloaks give one to someone who hasn't got one unless that person is a ****ess waster who is freeloading off your hard work and couldn't be bothered to buy their own cloak" ......then it would make sense for the "religious right" to be making those "As a Christian....." statements, but as it doesn't then those "christian" statements ring as hollow as an old lecture by Ted Haggard on family values and the evils of drug fueled gay sex.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

BTW, my first lung collapse I was put in a room with a gentleman faking illness so he could collect his disability check from the state of MD.....screw me and tell me people do not get over on the system. Open your eyes.

In any program, government or commercial, there will always be people trying (and succeeding) to scam the system. That should not be a reflection on the system but on the criminal.

The question is: What percentage of people taking part in the program are "good people" and what percentage are "bad people"?

If a government/commercial program has 99.99% of the participants playing by the rules and 0.01% scamming the system, oh well, no need to cancel the entire program.

Even if it is 99% vs 1%. Shoot, lets really go wild 90% good vs 10% scumbags, what difference does it make? Especially if it will cost more to monitor the system to catch the few scumbags and it would cost to let them in. The program is helping 90% of the good people. Yeah it sucks that 10% are scumbags scamming the system but in any system there will always be scumbags scamming the system.

The goal should be to take reasonable precautions that are economically sound to keep the number of scumbags as low as practical. The ones that slither through, let em. Concentrate on helping the vast majority of good people that need work.

Any system that excludes 100% of the scumbags guaranteed will also be allowing well deserving good people slip through the cracks.

My opinion: It is worth allowing a few scumbags to scam the system in order to ensure that we help all the good people we can. Cost of doing good work.

YMMV