State Lawmakers Propose Mandatory DNA Samples

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

But you did not answer the question. How and where did your DNA get into the data base? I have not been anywhere were DNA was asked for. In law enforcement your DNA might end up in the data base as a result of a crime. Again, if your DNA is not in the data base why worry? I just do not see company X raiding my hair brush for a sample or getting taken to the ground only to find a cotton swab in my mouth for sample off my inner cheek.

My DNA probably ended up in a German database roughly 15 years ago.

Had the German equivalent of the FBI/ State BI come to my house to collect samples and ask question about my whereabouts at a certain date and time to exclude me from a list of murder suspects.

Personally, I do not mind so much if DNA is collected by law enforcement. However, the notion that private companies could get access to those is pretty much laughable. If the privacy laws in Germany did not drastically change in the last five years, there is no way in hell any company can get access to those DB's except as a federal contractor.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

This is were we part agreement. For starters, the police will not be entering your home for a sample nor will they call you in. We also have to consider probably cause. The there is illegal search and seizure. If your in the pokie you ended up there for a reason. Wrong spot at the wrong time only flys so far. I do not see this DNA issue going above law enforcement usage only...warranted or not.

then you also do not see illegal advetising per telephone, rpobbery of bank datbases, hacking of customer databases, theft of disks with copied data as a problem. All this is illegal. All this gets done nevertheless, numbers climbing. For the third time, we have had several mahor data security falures in Britian and Germany in the past 12 months. Tens of thousands of datasets, in one case I think even hundreds of thousands, got hacked, also sensible defence data.

I don't know what game you are playing here, but this demonstrative display of naivety doesn't suit you, AVG.

However.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Skybird

then you also do not see illegal advetising per telephone, rpobbery of bank datbases, hacking of customer databases, theft of disks with copied data as a problem. All this is illegal. All this gets done nevertheless, numbers climbing. For the third time, we have had several mahor data security falures in Britian and Germany in the past 12 months. Tens of thousands of datasets, in one case I think even hundreds of thousands, got hacked, also sensible defence data.

I don't know what game you are playing here, but this demonstrative display of naivety doesn't suit you, AVG.

However.

Well hey, this all happened in Britian and Germany. I do not much care what happens in these two countries. I do not see DNA as some sort of chart topper for corporations here in the states. The DNA in the data bases are from those with some type of criminal record. Really, what would a corporation want with Charles Mason's DNA? The only game here is you suspect you will be tackled to the ground for your DNA or your DNA will be sought after by corporations. Really, you have no reason to fear anything if you DNA is not in a data base. Even then, why worry? This worry on DNA is as bad as our discussion about looking after my daughters and being protective as I am.

[MothBalls]

Originally Posted by Thomen

Personally, I do not mind so much if DNA is collected by law enforcement. However, the notion that private companies could get access to those is pretty much laughable. If the privacy laws in Germany did not drastically change in the last five years, there is no way in hell any company can get access to those DB's except as a federal contractor.

You do understand that the data is reduced to a number. That's all that is needed. It isn't an actual tissue sample. It becomes nothing more than a data point, just like a fingerprint.

As far as access to it? I don't know if there is a German equivalent list, but here's one from the US: http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Chro...reaches.htm#CP

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Skybird

then you also do not see illegal advetising per telephone, rpobbery of bank datbases, hacking of customer databases, theft of disks with copied data as a problem. All this is illegal. All this gets done nevertheless, numbers climbing. For the third time, we have had several mahor data security falures in Britian and Germany in the past 12 months. Tens of thousands of datasets, in one case I think even hundreds of thousands, got hacked, also sensible defence data.

I don't know what game you are playing here, but this demonstrative display of naivety doesn't suit you, AVG.

However.

Plus, if you want legal action to be taken against such activities, you can call the police. But when police does something that isn't quite according to the law, who you gonna call - Ghostbusters?

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

Plus, if you want legal action to be taken against such activities, you can call the police. But when police does something that isn't quite according to the law, who you gonna call - Ghostbusters?

No man, the Ghostbusters have the machine that changes the molecular structure of your DNA. Not cool man.

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by MothBalls

You do understand that the data is reduced to a number. That's all that is needed. It isn't an actual tissue sample. It becomes nothing more than a data point, just like a fingerprint.

Indeed. I am aware of this.

As far as access to it? I don't know if there is a German equivalent list, but here's one from the US: http://www.privacyrights.org/ar/Chro...reaches.htm#CP

Damn.. I am not even sure I do want know if such a list exists.

It is rather scary that those pencil pusher who oversee all that stuff seem to have no clue about data security.
Friend of mine works as a Data Security Manager for a local federal agency here, and the kind of stories he tells are really scary when it comes to pencil pushers and scientiests.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

No man, the Ghostbusters have the machine that changes the molecular structure of your DNA. Not cool man.

Yeah, I was a bit fuzzy on the whole "good/bad" thing. All right, important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

Yeah, I was a bit fuzzy on the whole "good/bad" thing. All right, important safety tip. Thanks, Egon.

Welcome sir!

[Zachstar]

Lovely for the OP to leave that "At arrest for Felony" part out of the title.

Nothing to worry about. Matter of fact I believe DNA needs to be taken at any arrest. DNA is far more effective at identifying real criminals than fingerprints could ever dream of.

[CaptainHaplo]

There are a number of issues here.

First - your innocent until PROVEN guilty. This means that without probably cause, you shouldn't be arrested in the first place. Yet such arrests happen. So to say that "if you ended up in the pokie, you must have done something wrong" is not true at all. I have been arrested and charged with a felony. Spent three days in jail. Got bailed out, ultimately went to court, and was acquitted because I had done nothing wrong. *All I will say is psychotic ex-wife*

Yet with this law, my DNA would be on file with an arm of the government, and they have no right to have it. So we have a problem already.

Next you have unreasonable search and seizure. DNA is by definition, the building block of life. Therefore, my DNA is part of ME! This law would allow a police officer to take part of me, against my will, for testing. The difference between a flake of skin or a strand of hair vs my finger or an arm, are simply matters of scale. So this would make it ok to take part of me apart, as long as it was a "tiny" amount. Bullcrap. Thats like saying if you steal a million dollars its theft, but if you steal one dollar from my wallet its ok because it didn't hurt.

This could easily be gotten around anyway since DNA can be collected in ways that do not violate either this or the next point.

Right to privacy - whats mine is mine - and my DNA is mine. Now there are times when that right can be overridden, but they require a warrant signed by a judge. Whats wrong with having to go to a judge and say "we need this, here is the reason we think we are within the law to get it" and have him decide? This violates the whole idea of due process.

Whats amazing is the last two objections don't even need to be there. Because say your suspect is a smoker.... watch him take a smoke break at work, then when he flips the cig, go reclaim it. Sure its disgusting, but by discarding it, he put it in the public domain, so you don't need a warrant to procure and test it. Get a match? Then go to a judge and say look, we got a suspect, watched him smoke a coffin nail, retrieved it and had it tested. It matches - so we need an arrest warrant.

The above actually occured in a case BTW, and the DNA evidence was accepted as having legal standing despite defense objections. The conviction was also upheld in all following appeals.

It doesn't have to be a cig, can be a cup of water, a soda can, a fork, etc. You get the picture.

Final problem..... DNA is NOT the "end all" of identification. It is nowhere NEAR the 99.9% "certainty" often quoted by law enforcement.

Read here and see for yourself:
http://blog.simplejustice.us/2008/07/20/dna-what-are-the-odds.aspx

Many here know how statistics can be manipulated, but the fact that law enforcement will not allow the DB to be checked to determine the true "odds", and instead bases the number off their "estimates", tells me quite a bit.

Simple solution - DNA on file at conviction, or follow due process as is required now.

[ETR3(SS)]

Allow me to interject this part of the article as no one has seemed to touch on it.

Taking DNA samples during an arrest is already the law in 21 states, WISC-TV reported.

21 states already do this? 21?! That's nearly half the US. I would think that news of this would have been more prolific when almost half the United States has this law.

EDIT: A bit more of the story from another TV station.

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - State lawmakers have introduced a bill that would require sheriffs and police to swab anyone arrested for a felony for DNA.
Twenty-one states take DNA upon arrest. Right now in Wisconsin a suspect must be convicted of a felony before he or she must submit a sample.


Sen. Sheila Harsdorf, a River Falls Republican, says taking DNA upon arrest like fingerprints and mug shots could tie a suspect to other crimes faster and save the state money on lengthy investigations.


The American Civil Liberties Union's Wisconsin chapter taking DNA upon arrest, calling it too expensive and too invasive.

Look the ACLU does something good for once(lately)!

[Platapus]

Do they still take DNA samples in the military? They did when I was in.

[ETR3(SS)]

I don't recall having my DNA taken but that doesn't mean they didn't. They do take blood still so they could easily get it from that.

[Zachstar]

I am not going to even try to debate the insane and stupid conspiracy theories around DNA. Often started by those on the far right who hate that it has proven that some people on death row are innocent.

DNA is far more effective than fingerprints. And its effectiveness at proving innocence is why its important that DNA be taken at arrest.

And almost half the nation does it already. It saves money in the long run because its hard to appeal a conviction based on DNA.