My recent experience of the UK National Health Service (long post)

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

but one would think that Christians would be the first ones to support a system that protects everyone. That is not meant to demean anyone who is Christian, but rather to point out the seeming paradox of values in any large society; and American society on the whole claims the mantle of Christianity.

As a Christian, I can say that it is not Christian to support a system that subjects the life and property of "free" people to the claws of government. Nor is it Christian to create and grow dependancy on such a system. Thusly, government control at the expense of individual freedom is not Christian at all.

It is Christian for individuals to pursue a system that upholds the liberty of people, protects their life and property, and thus can use their own resources to help people under their own free will. America acts as a Christian nation when free individuals are free to help those around them, without empowering government to be the arbiter of who has what at the voting boot. Voting away other people's property or freedom for redistributive purposes is utterly antithetical to Christian values.

Especially as we've seen the poor results of government acting as a charity. Often times it being destructive to many people. I just can't see any Christian helping others through an all powrful government at the expense of freedom, economic liberty, and property rights. I'm of the opinion trying to use government iin this way actually kills the true spirit of giving, as it is actually people being generous with other people's resources.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

As a Christian, I can say that it is not Christian to support a system that subjects the life and property of "free" people to the claws of government. Nor is it Christian to create and grow dependancy on such a system. Thusly, government control at the expense of individual freedom is not Christian at all.

It is Christian for individuals to pursue a system that upholds the liberty of people, protects their life and property, and thus can use their own resources to help people under their own free will. America acts as a Christian nation when free individuals are free to help those around them, without empowering government to be the arbiter of who has what at the voting boot. Voting away other people's property or freedom for redistributive purposes is utterly antithetical to Christian values.

Especially as we've seen the poor results of government acting as a charity. Often times it being destructive to many people. I just can't see any Christian helping others through an all powrful government at the expense of freedom, economic liberty, and property rights. I'm of the opinion trying to use government iin this way actually kills the true spirit of giving, as it is actually people being generous with other people's resources.

Good reply. I've waffled and wobbled back and forth in my own feelings on what needs to be done and how. My comments were based mainly on my observation of the vast (and vocal) group of self-proclaimed 'believers' who seem to place their country on an equal or even higher level than their God. You (and Iceman, and a few others here) strike me as being much more thoughtful and reasoning than that other group.

As a medic I know that when a 125 kg (250 lb) guy is wounded in some forsaken forest, Jesus is never around when it comes to actually carrying his ass out of there.

[MothBalls]

I agree with you CaptainHaplo. I don't think responsible people should foot the bill for the irresponsible. As a small business owner I pay more than my fair share of taxes and insurance already.

Right now they are targeting me to pay more to cover people too lazy to work. My unemployment insurance premiums are about to go up AGAIN because they want to extend unemployment payments again. Many of these deadbeats don't look for work because they are getting paid not to. You want to cure unemployment? Quit paying people to not work.

The same thing is going to happen with health care. I'm going to end up footing the bill for those who refuse to buy coverage (just like I do now via higher premiums and taxes). That is 100% wrong. I have zero sympathy for those who aren't responsible enough to maintain their own insurance.

I do think we need health care reforms and some stricter regulations on the insurance industry. Tort reform would be a good place to start. As for the public option, it should be 100% self sufficient. We all know that's a fantasy that will never happen, and dollars to donuts, I'll be the one getting the bill.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by MothBalls

Tort reform would be a good place to start.

Tort reform has already happened in TX and CA and has done little to nothing to stem the rising costs of health care.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Tort reform has already happened in TX and CA and has done little to nothing to stem the rising costs of health care.

Tort reform is only one part of the larger picture of problems. Even if it has done very little it still has done something. A bunch of 'little something' add up to a lot of somethings.

[AVGWarhawk]

As for professional freeloaders, well the freeloader is a risk you take with national health care and benefit systems, however I think you will find they make up a small number of claimants.

Still a number we have to pay for. Unfortunate that will be status quo.

I also have to disagree with statements about why you shouldn't have to pay for people who make no contribution.

What about someone who was in gainful employment (the majority of the population) who due to the recent crisis has lost their job. So for the time they are out of work they don't make contributions. If they are like most people they will be looking for work and eventually find work, thus they start making contributions again.

If you paid in and loose a job should not automatically make you loose coverage. Even here in the states you can get Cobra Insurance if you loose your job. You are not left in the cold.

You see that is why we pay taxes and National Insurance over here in hte UK. I know that I have paid my way so if things go to rat**** I have contributed along with the majority of people to the safety net that is there if I should need it. Therefore I do not begrudge paying my taxes. True they need to crack down on freeloaders and in the UK they are starting to.

Safety net here is Cobra Insurance. Also your savings. It is recommended you save at least 3 months of salary in case something happens. That seems smart to me. I lost my job and was jobless for 3 months. I lived on my savings. I did not apply for unemployment that I was entitled to. Just they way I am.

I do agree however you can make money out of being sick, but there are ways to crackdown. They are starting that here, and yes it is unpopular, but only amongst those who know they will be busted.

People work the system for financial gain. Happens all the time. It is called fraud. Need more following up on claims that are false.

However on balance I am glad we have an NHS. BTW I don't see what being a Christian really has to do with it all.

I do not see this as a Christian dealing at all. Not sure how that got in the mix.

[AVGWarhawk]

Looking at this..I think we will be paying no matter what options are available. There will always be the free loader.