In RL any chance for a Kilo skipper to survive after attacking a Chinese task force?

[ACR]

surely hard to answer and like said here much depending on situation, sonar condition, sub and escort skills.

the best shot is that a single kilo sent against a well protected task force would hardly be able to reach a good firing position without detected by active sonar and so probably would not sink a carrier.

in a hunt for the kilo i would give it a reasonable chance for surviving in deep waters with some layers at the first escort response,but of course they can play and wait until its batterises are down.

so my guess for real life- the kilo has in deep waters a 50% chance to survive the respone, but only 10% to score a hit at a significant ship of the task force.

for RL operations we also have to consider one more faktor-even the knowledge that the enemy has kilo subs gives the need for a big escort in asw and so even without a kill the kilo could fullfill its mission since many resources are used up fot the potential danger and since the rosources are always limited they may lack in other conflict scenarios.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Those are pretty big assumptions and if we go by real life reports (gotland sub sneaking up to an american carrier during friendly exercises) just demonstrate who wrong you are on this issue. The fact is diesel subs are pretty damn hard to detect, shallow or no shallow zone when using batteries. Wishing the Kilo were *S H I T* doesn't make it so in real life.

lol I don't wish the Kilo is a junk. I tried real hard to survive in the Kilo I played. Just that I found its weapons have a very limited range forcing me to approach within 3nmi of the nearest escort which was pinging actively. Had that been RL the escort would have picked me and started closing in and the task force would have edged away.

As for shallow water I guess the Kilo would have tremendous help in rocky bottom sea.

Originally Posted by ACR

surely hard to answer and like said here much depending on situation, sonar condition, sub and escort skills.

the best shot is that a single kilo sent against a well protected task force would hardly be able to reach a good firing position without detected by active sonar and so probably would not sink a carrier.

in a hunt for the kilo i would give it a reasonable chance for surviving in deep waters with some layers at the first escort response,but of course they can play and wait until its batterises are down.

so my guess for real life- the kilo has in deep waters a 50% chance to survive the respone, but only 10% to score a hit at a significant ship of the task force.

for RL operations we also have to consider one more faktor-even the knowledge that the enemy has kilo subs gives the need for a big escort in asw and so even without a kill the kilo could fullfill its mission since many resources are used up fot the potential danger and since the rosources are always limited they may lack in other conflict scenarios.

I think the Kilo biggest help is an unsuspecting enemy.

And it's best used against civilian shipping and a single or a pair of warship formation. And not used to challenge a task force(that's the job of a nuclear subs with free maneuverability, longer range weapons and for Russian or US Seawolf with more ready tubes). Well it could be used to challenge a task force but once it launched its weapons then it became exposed and once a Kilo is exposed it's only a matter of time before the ASW forces takes it out. And that is assuming it could approach a suspecting or an alert enemy within kill range of its weapon salvo without a hint of detection.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Castout

lol I don't wish the Kilo is a junk. I tried real hard to survive in the Kilo I played. Just that I found its weapons have a very limited range forcing me to approach within 3nmi of the nearest escort which was pinging actively. Had that been RL the escort would have picked me and started closing in and the task force would have edged away.

As for shallow water I guess the Kilo would have tremendous help in rocky bottom sea.

Castout, how do you know that a Kilo wouldn't be able to sneak up to 3 nmi of a ship ? Just because the ship is pinging doesn't mean it can pick up the Kilo. Consider enviromental conditions, consider the skipper manouvering the Kilo so that it is in line with the active ping (cross section is minimised) etc...
Diesel eletric subs using batteries are dead quiet, and if the enviroment is adverse, pinging will do you no good.

You have to know where to ping, take the frigate for instance, you have different modes for active pings. Single beam, omni and omni rotational. Getting a contact on single beam doesn't imply you'll get the same contact on omni for instance. And in single beam you must know where to send the ping. So you see even generic pinging theoretically will do you no good.

[Castout]

Hi goldorak I was referring to that specific scenario but I assume a continuous omni directional pinging would have exposed a Kilo approaching from more than 3 nmi. I admit that it's very hard to find a Kilo passively but that's all more reason the enemy will try to find it with other ways such as disembarked helicopter and active sonar.

Remember the Kilo must maneuver itself first and foremost to the ambush area ahead of the task force vector it can only try to maneuver to pose the minimum cross section to enemy active sonar when it has arrived at its ambush position..

Anyway all these are only my personal opinion

[OneShot]

Just a thought to consider ...

The Effectiveness of Active Pinging in RL is hugely dependant upon enviromental conditions and lots of other factors. Read up on various open publications and you can find instances where the detection occured at less than 1nm and sometimes detection occured at over 20k yards. Since passive detection of a conventional sub on batteries is extremely hard one's major chance of catching a conventional sub is to use active sonar. That ups the odds but its not a given that it will be detected at all.

So for the sake of argument, if the Kilo gets in close undetected then its chances after shooting to escape are not great but it should be doable (given that it can disguise the point from where it shot). However without disguising the datum, and if the ASW forces react decisivly, then the Skipper can kiss his *** goodbye

[Kapitan]

Most russian diesel boats were designed with expendability in mind remember 1982 whiskey on the rocks personally that was a setup how could a submarine just run into that by mistake.

Kilo's just the same designed to protect the borders of russia.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Kapitan

remember 1982 whiskey on the rocks personally that was a setup how could a submarine just run into that by mistake.

Are you saying Russians are incapable of making mistakes? History absolutely does not support your theory. Ths Soviets/Russians made tons of mistakes.

I think the whiskey incident happened just like any other incident where the human factor is present. I fail to see the Russians setting themselves up to potentially lose high value national assets like submarines on purpose. Especially ones carrying nuclear weapons.