and they call us "Astro turfers"

[CaptainHaplo]

Funny, I haven't seen ANY health care company come out against health care reform. What I HAVE seen, is individuals who take the time to read, say 'Absolutely Not!" to the CURRENT reform proposals.

What is disturbing is that many of the liberals involved in crafting the various proposals - ADMIT they have no idea what the proposals actually say, and have refused to read them.

So what we have here is this. People that don't read the proposals, are all for them. The people that know what is contained in the various legislative bills, are deadset against it.

Why is it that it must be a immediate, total change in the system? Case in point - President Obama says there are BILLIONS wasted in Medicare every year, and he is going to keep from cutting benefits to our older citizens by cutting that waste to help fund the other initiatives. Here is an idea - reform MEDICARE so you don't waste Billions - show the American people that you can be good stewards of a health care related program - show us that you can create an efficient, government overseen medical program, and THEN start discussing how to use that same success to make health care better for even more people.

But the government takeover of health care can't wait - because its more about a power grab than it is looking out for the American People.

Funny, I haven't seen ANY health care company come out against health care reform.

Is that because you havn't looked?

[August]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Here is an idea - reform MEDICARE so you don't waste Billions - show the American people that you can be good stewards of a health care related program - show us that you can create an efficient, government overseen medical program, and THEN start discussing how to use that same success to make health care better for even more people.

But the government takeover of health care can't wait - because its more about a power grab than it is looking out for the American People.

This ^

[CaptainHaplo]

Tribesman - try putting some fact out to make the point. Don't try to repeat mookie's though - because while it was a valient attempt - the links referenced individuals who WORK in health care (they have a right to be heard just like anyone else) and an ASSOCIATION - not a specific company. Also note that they SUPPORT reform - just not THIS one. (Or did that mere fact not fit your preconcieved evil corporation viewpoint and thus was ignored?) Show me where Blue Cross Blue Shield for example is putting out commercials about how health care reform is a horrible Idea. Oh wait - you cant. They actually have run some here where they support it - with some major changes. Yet groups like the AARP (who know nothing ABOUT insurance) can sure put out flat out LIES about what is being proposed and no one raises an eyebrow.

Sorry - but double standards and accusation without fact just don't weigh heavy on my mind.

[Aramike]

Here is an idea - reform MEDICARE so you don't waste Billions - show the American people that you can be good stewards of a health care related program - show us that you can create an efficient, government overseen medical program, and THEN start discussing how to use that same success to make health care better for even more people.

But the government takeover of health care can't wait - because its more about a power grab than it is looking out for the American People.

Like August, agreed. Well put and pragmatic.

Haplo, make your mind up.
If you want to try and dodge the issue by claiming its an association and as such not valid, then why on earth do you bring in an association and claim it backs up your point.
In case you don't understand.
AHIP is according to you not a valid example as it is an ASSOCIATION of health care providers.
Yet Blue Cross Blue Shield is a valid example despite being an ASSOCIATION of health care providers.

[CaptainHaplo]

Tribesman - stop playing semantics when you know the difference. Unless of course your incapable of understanding the difference.

AHIP is an association in the classic sense, a group of divergent and INDEPENDANT companies that can speak through the association as a collective, singular voice. AHIP does NOT offer or provide any insurance to individual, private citizens, because that is NOT its purpose.

BCBS on the other hand, is an INSURANCE PROVIDER. While it is made up of members that are under contract - they must conform to the rules laid down by BCBS in the coverage they provide, how they deal with doctors, etc. In essence, to the consumer - BCBS is simply one large company.

The fact you try to confuse on semantics - over a word that both use but that is clearly different in their meaning, shows how desperate you are to NOT discuss the real topic - that reform is supported, but not this massive change everything and let the government run it all plan.

Its these kinds of tactics that make the average american look at liberals in power and shake their head. You can't win on facts, so you try everything you can to keep from having to deal with facts. Argue semantics, try and divert the conversation, call out people for having double standards, regardless of if its true, just to keep from having to deal with the facts. And yet your probably trying to figure out why the independants who elected this Congress and President have backed away from the support they once gave.

You can't answer the issue of "why not reform Medicare first" and show some success and build trust with the American people. You can't answer why it must all be done in one fell swoop via legistlation that none of those that support it have actually read. You don't have an answer for the fact that the people that have read it are against it. All you know is its something put out by "your side" - so reality, fact and honest discussion be damned.

That is why THIS health care reform is unlikely to happen. A much more reasonable, affordable plan will end up with support. Because not everyone is as willing as you to wear blinders and follow with ignorance.

*editted to correct 2 spelling errors.

You can't answer the issue of "why not reform Medicare first" and show some success and build trust with the American people.

Is that because the insurance providers who are pretty much cleaning up with the current Medicare program are spending lots of money to ensure that popliticians either block legislation on reform or only approve "reform" that doesn't actually reform.
Sorry you will have to remind me. Who are the people who are at meetings objecting to reform of Medicare?
You know the "Keep the stinking government out of my medicare" sort of thing.
If I am not mistaken thats some of the teabagging wingnuts isn't it.
But OK every little group has loonies.
So what about the political parties.
Which party has a good number of its politicians taking a stance that Medicare reform is simply not on the table at all?

Its these kinds of tactics that make the average american look at liberals in power and shake their head. You can't win on facts, so you try everything you can to keep from having to deal with facts. Argue semantics, try and divert the conversation

Would that be winning on facts like calling policies nazi and communist at the same time as well as being unconstitutional and even traitorous and talking nonsense about death panels, euthenasia and illegal immigrants?

actually its the whole mess of american political debate that makes the world shake its head.

Because not everyone is as willing as you to wear blinders and follow with ignorance.

Thats funny as throughout the long discourse of the various healthcare topics people who object to any of the current proposed bills have displayed astounding levels of ignorance on the subject.