Women on Subs? NEAL!

[Aramike]

Ah, ever the anti-progress line...

I don't see how that is anti-progress. Sure, women would probably make submariners equal to men. I wouldn't say superior, but I'll say equal.

That being said, what then is the point? Todays subs are designed without regard to gender, and such an approach has served us extraordinarily well over the years. Submarines are, by nature, not a private place to live and work. Now with the inclusion of mixed-gender crews, some manner of privacy will have to be obtained.

To me that seems like a downgrade. It is certainly not progress.

Our fighting forces don't exist to give people jobs or opportunities. Sure, opportunity naturally comes with the territory, but that's not the point. The purpose is the mission, and that supercedes any idea of equal-opportunity.

What's next? Making sure that boats have handicap access?

Frankly, I'd find it interesting to have an all-woman crewed boat, however.

I dunno if I was in the armed services I'd have no problem changing clothes or showering in vicinity of a woman who isn't my girlfriend, could keep my thoughts clean too.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Aramike

I don't see how that is anti-progress. Sure, women would probably make submariners equal to men. I wouldn't say superior, but I'll say equal.

In fact, I'll even go so far as to say that they'll average inferior in one index, Strength. Ever the big one. Most of the differences between male and female (such as the supposed greater spatial ability of men vs the greater communicative average of women) is in the fuzz range insofar as it exists, but the strength average thing is undeniable...

That being said, what then is the point? Todays subs are designed without regard to gender, and such an approach has served us extraordinarily well over the years. Submarines are, by nature, not a private place to live and work. Now with the inclusion of mixed-gender crews, some manner of privacy will have to be obtained.

To me that seems like a downgrade. It is certainly not progress.

A hundred years (or was it 200?) ago, a hammock was considered adequate accomodation. Now, people actually demand beds, locker space, air conditioning ... etc, as in comfort. They also demand shore time, family time ... etc. Is that a "downgrade"?

Frankly, after men get over their macho "We are tough" thing, they'll probably figure that maybe the improvement in privacy is no bad thing for themselves too.

Our fighting forces don't exist to give people jobs or opportunities. Sure, opportunity naturally comes with the territory, but that's not the point. The purpose is the mission, and that supercedes any idea of equal-opportunity.

What's next? Making sure that boats have handicap access?

If handicapped people are roughly 50% of the population, and you are not exactly overmanned, and you want the most suitable in the population and the handicaps aren't too directly relevant to the job ... well, one might want to consider it...

Frankly, I'd find it interesting to have an all-woman crewed boat, however.

Well, if you ever want that see that interest happen, there will have to be a transition period where women work with men. Otherwise, inexperience in a role that men have locked them out of for decades will kill the program before anyone can see whether it'll work.

[Aramike]

A hundred years (or was it 200?) ago, a hammock was considered adequate accomodation. Now, people actually demand beds, locker space, air conditioning ... etc, as in comfort. They also demand shore time, family time ... etc. Is that a "downgrade"?

There's a difference between designing a boat to consider creature comforts when the technology is demanding new designs altogether and just doing it because you want to add such amenities.

Frankly, after men get over their macho "We are tough" thing, they'll probably figure that maybe the improvement in privacy is no bad thing for themselves too.

But they already have the same level of privacy they would have with an integrated force, except now they have more space.

By "privacy" in this context I meant "gender isolation", or privacy for the gender as a hole.

If handicapped people are roughly 50% of the population, and you are not exactly overmanned, and you want the most suitable in the population and the handicaps aren't too directly relevant to the job ... well, one might want to consider it...

That's true, except it would make more sense to explore other alternatives first.

Well, if you ever want that see that interest happen, there will have to be a transition period where women work with men. Otherwise, inexperience in a role that men have locked them out of for decades will kill the program before anyone can see whether it'll work.

Also true. I just thought it was interesting.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by Aramike

That's true, except it would make more sense to explore other alternatives first.

What other alternatives?
Just curious, my stand on this issue is meh, not much would really change if women were on subs.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

What other alternatives?
Just curious, my stand on this issue is meh, not much would really change if women were on subs.

Enhanced recruiting, raising the payscale and benefits, etc.

Don't get me wrong - I really don't have a problem with women on subs. A sense of machismo isn't my guiding factor here.

The fact is, however, the US submarines are not designed to accomodate both genders. As explained earlier in the thread, the addition of women to a sub's crew only serves to inconvenience the men. So, that means there is no appreciable gain in performance (should all things be equal) but there is a measurable degradation in morale from a good portion of the crew (which could inversely impact performance).

So, as such, there's really no point.

Originally Posted by Aramike

the addition of women to a sub's crew only serves to inconvenience the men.

Lets just ban men from subs if they have such a problem with being inconvenienced. Subs would be better maintained and probably get more kills during wartime anyways.