Calvert's "Silent Running"

[DigitalAura]

I'm reading through John Calvert's autobiographical account of his years aboard the USS Jack. It's a great read...but some things leave me questioning some of gameplay in SH4.

For example, Calvert claims that the IJN loved to ping as they sailed. He said that their crew relied on hearing the Japanese long before they could pick them up on radar or passive sonar. For this reason, the Jack didn't use active sonar at all.

In my recollection, I don't think I've ever 'discovered' an enemy ship on account of their use of active sonar giving them away...
Am I correct to assume that this wasn't coded into the game?
And can someone tell me if there's a way to isolate a target who is pinging your sub? I wouldn't know how to go about doing that.

There's other things too, I'll have to check the book again...

[SteamWake]

Subs very rarely used 'active' sonar. Even then it was only to confirm range to target.

As far as the IJN sailing around pinging away perhaps they did but why? Most task forces are hauling butt at flank and couldent get a decent return anyhow.

You can still hear them comming alot further off than you can see them so there is some truth to that.

Am always careful with first person accounts. Comparing the patrols narrated by Herbert Werner in Iron Coffins with the historical records of those same patrols can be instructive.

I got a sense that Calvert tended to trivialize details but its still a good read as you said.

Sometimes authors will write what they expect their audiance to see and when people think of submarines they automatically think 'Ping' even if they have no idea what a 'Ping' might represent.

On the other hand it's possible that constant active searching was doctrinal for the areas that Jack operated in.

i dont know if you knew this but in case nobody told you, the game is very dissapointing as far as trying to recreate accurate tactics and stategy so it is very hard to follow what they did in real life situations because of game limitations.

[DigitalAura]

" Comparing the patrols narrated by Herbert Werner in Iron Coffins with the historical records of those same patrols can be instructive"

Oh good! That's the next book in my pile!

"the game is very dissapointing as far as trying to recreate accurate tactics and stategy"

That's interesting! They got so much right, that it is surprising to me that this kind of detailing could be overlooked. Especially since, in this case, it's not the result of a physical or game limitation as much as a historical oversight. Behaviour of AI is easily coded...even modded.


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Another thing I was surprised about was the incredible reliance the navigators had on their sextant and the stars in the wee morning hours. We take it for granted, but it looks to me like most times submariners didn't know if they were 20 miles off or 20 yards off. They really depended on LANDFALLS, which would be really cool werre it somehow implemented in game.


Also, I was surprised at the number of night encounters with aircraft in the book. I've never seen a plane even on radar in the game after sunset... and even more odd, never even seen a friendly ever! The navy used two letter challenge and response codes when they met. They'd signal with a 'blinker' gun to each other.
Now THAT would be fantastic to simulate in game.

[Armistead]

As I understand it and I read this long detailed explanation long ago, they're always pinging when in moving convoys, ect. Wish I could find it again.

The bug is you don't hear it unless you are picked up by it.

It seemed true, because fast tracking DD's shouldn't be able to pick you up.

Have you even noticed your going in to attack, then a dd makes his standard turn and get's his bow facing you. At the exact second you hear the ping or the ping happens when you get in his sonar game. So maybe it's true it is on....just what I read long ago. The way the game works it appears true.

Seems to me they're always pinging, you just can't hear it until you're picked up in their sonar cone.

However, once they find you is when they will go passive

Why it's important to stay out of their sonar cone when attacking.

[Rip]

Great book, and it really has me yearning for a return to Perth/Freemantle.
I have read it a few times and I am reading Wahoo right now but I just don't find myself getting wrapped up in the story as much as Silent Running.

[kylesplanet]

A wonderful book indeed. Calvert was a good writer and had a distinguished carrer in subs.

V.A. Calvert passed away in June of this year, a true hero of American submarines.

[DigitalAura]

Here's another weird thing I noticed he said...
Something to the effect that they couldn't use passive sonar effectively while surface running...


huh? I've never noticed a difference in the game between surface / submerged sonar ... anyone?

[Subnuts]

Originally Posted by DigitalAura

Here's another weird thing I noticed he said...
Something to the effect that they couldn't use passive sonar effectively while surface running...


huh? I've never noticed a difference in the game between surface / submerged sonar ... anyone?

In O'kane's Clear The Bridge! he mentions that the only time they ever used passive sonar on the surface was when the boat was stopped and in calm seas. I imagine the flow noise against the hull, the sound of waves slapping against the boat, and the hammering of the diesels would make the use of passive sonar while surfaced all but impossible at speeds above three or four knots.

[Rockin Robbins]

The key words must be "all but." Unlike our game, they had selective listening abilities, from the lower end of the listening range to the supersonic. Therefore, contacts could be developed on the surface and they were expected to be so. The Sonar Operator's Manual makes it clear that the sonar operator is expected to stay on duty while surfaced until ordered to stand down.

In addition, the range of filters, not available in the game, made this possible. Own ship sounds were lower frequencies, listened to by selecting the bass boost filter. To filter out own ship sounds, filters above 500 cps were used. (no Hertz back then, it was cycles per second). There were two filters available for frequencies above that, even, so it is clear that sonic sonar was useful when surfaced. Supersonic sonar would not have cared much about ownship noises at all.

Here's the illustration in the sonar manual about using filters with normal sonic passive sonar.



From the manual:

Filters can define and narrow the target
Propeller noise is made up of all frequencies. But background noise, from the water and the submarine, is mostly low-frequency sounds. Therefore, by operating with a high-frequency filter you can get rid of the background noise, yet still hear the screws.

BUT, in my search of all reported surface contacts developed by all submarines during the war, I did not find a single instance where the FIRST contact was made through sonar. Obviously visual and radar was superior there, but after contact was made, oftentimes sonar was put to use, even on the surface.

Sonar is one of Silent Hunter's weaknesses, with plenty of room for more realism and detail. There were three main sonar arrays, with filters and amplifiers for each, none of which is modeled. This could be a fascinating addition to future sub sims. Unfortunately, it looks like SH5 ain't it.

[DigitalAura]

Wow...that's some amazing clarity given, RR. I had no idea the SH4 sim was so off the mark! I'm somewhat disappointed to learn that the way I hunt has no similarities to reality.
I use sonar while traveling on the surface (at standard speed) to find convoys (I have no SJ yet)... and in this book, Calvert claims they ran on the surface and relied on the high periscope for extra visual range to spot convoys.

I thought I'd pick up some cool tips from reading this book, but now I'm finding this game is becoming less and less a realistic sim altogether.

[DigitalAura]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

I did not find a single instance where the FIRST contact was made through sonar.

Calvert claims that on many occasions they made contact through the sonar...that is to say, they HEARD the enemy pinging away which resulted in giving away the task force's location. (perhaps you don't consider this a FIRST CONTACT because there isn't anything to create a solution yet?)