SH5 Updates from the SUBSIM meeting next week

[oscar19681]

Originally Posted by JU_88

I can appreciate that actual wolfpacks are not an easy thing to create,
for instace where they need to shaddow a convoy or be able to co-ordinate attacks with eachother and the player.
Not easy no.

But having an AI sub that dives/surfaces and shoot torpedos - no that Certainly isnt rocket science and has been done before - many times.
If they can give a Sub some reasonable AI routines thats good enough for me, and it would certainly be a million time better than having nothing at all or some silly 'pretend' or 'virtual' wolfpack - which would just be a horrible immersion killer.

"oh look what that escort depth charging?"
(go to external cam)
"hmm appears to be depth charging nothing?"
(Que the eternal 'its a bug/feature' argument)

Sub AI dont have to be perfect...it just need to be in there, dump them in the SHV world and let them do their stuff, we've done the whole 'one sub against the world' thing in SH3 & 4.

Now we could use a change.

You said it man! You sure did!

[FIREWALL]

The thing is your saying what some don't want to see or hear.


The thing is.... I haven't seen or heard a definate no on Wolfpacks anywhere.


Maybe just building up the suspense.

[karamazovnew]

Actually, how hard CAN it be? I repeat what I said in my other posts, wolfpacks mean communication with other boats. I still doubt that the germans would be stupid enough to put 10 submerged uboats in a single attack within a 10 mile radius. They'd just collide with eachother. And, in case you've forgot, there are few avenues of approach to a convoy, altough I'd love to see the face of the captain of a destroyer when he picks up 10 contacts waiting for him . And again, having more subs firing at the same time would be impossible and would break the element of surprise. So... Ok they might be told to wait for you to be in the area before they scare off the convoy but I don't think having an extra status ("shadow convoy") is hard.

The question is, how hard can it be to have "encounters" between ai ships on the map? Each sub would get a patrol area, like you, ships/convoys come close to it, it decides wether to report or attack, it attacks, "results may vary". And the only way you'd know about it would be through radio messages. Remember the ones in GWX? They sounded nice but they were false, because there were no other uboats! But now each time they'd say "attacked convoy, suffered minor damage, sinked all escorts" you'd rush there to find an unescorted convoy They'd send real contact and weather reports, just like you do. And this time, your contact reports would also MEAN something.

Now there is a slight possibility that because of the way probability works, the other uboats might fare way better than the actual ones did and you'd end up with 1000 uboats in the atlantic at the end of the war. To help them "die" more historically acurate, the random dice rolls could be helped by forcing them to meet the quota, through the easy to find number of uboats that were lost each month.
Now, how many subs did the germans have in the atlantic at one time? 30?50?100? Falcon 4 had a dynamic campaign with thousands of units fighting in the air/land/sea. So again, how hard CAN it be?

[karamazovnew]

Actually, let me make you a challenge. Let's help Ubi see how simple it is, by making a pseudocode ourselves . We can make a thread where any programmers can join in and explore this Wolfpack thing in detail. In one month at the most we could present the devs a detailed solution to the wolfpack problem

[FIREWALL]

read other members posts for a change.

[karamazovnew]

Who me? I did! I just don't like quoting 2 screens of posts This has been discused for a looong time. Why? What did I miss?

[V.C. Sniper]

if (convoy spotted)
{
convoyContact.sendInfo();
convoyContact.shadowConvoy(isConvoyInSight);

if (escortSpotBoat)
{
ALARM();
}
}

//lulz

Wolfpacks is still an undecided issue.

Well thats just crazy, i mean really really crazy. We already have SH3, i've no need to upgrade to SH5 if it has no wolfpacks....it will just be a graphical upgrade and I tried that with SH4..PANTS!

No Wolfpacks? Simply not interested!

[Gotmilk]

updates updates updates. Tell us every detail you remember from presentation.

[Onkel Neal]

It's too early to tell, but basically it looks like SH3/4 with better graphics, full interior access, a much more strategic dynamic campaign, and with realism options for causal players (ship health bars, better enemy visual/sonar/radar range tools, etc). I fully support adding elements that make the game playable for the arcade/action game crowd, damn right. Of course, as long as it is scalable, has realism options that allow guys like me to have a fully manual TDC, no contacts update map, etc. Wouldn't it be great to sell the game to 120,000 hard core subsim players and 300,000 "shoot em up" action players?

I think the strategic dynamic campaign elements will add the most gameplay. As designed, when you attack a supply convoy it will affect the land battles, the routes of future convoys, and the enemy's ASW response.

AI Wolfpacks are .... well, they don't know yet if they will be in the game, if they will be very minimal, like AOD. I hope they are able to include AI wolfpacks, I think it would be a big letdown not to have "shadow convoy" objectives, where you must stay in contact with a convoy, not get too close so you are driven under and you lose the convoy; not too far away that you lose the convoy in the night; not attack until the other U-boats are in position (breaking that order and you lose command). This would add a lot of gameplay to the SH series and I believe it must be included.

[karamazovnew]

Affecting land battles might be over the top. However, depending on the year and month, some convoys could be somehow linked to historical battles and deemed more important.

I've just finished a post about the recognition manual. In it I've noticed that the TDC had a Ship Length dial and so the captain might have had a way to calculate the ship's speed through the TDC. Think about it, with such a tool and a double split prism stadimeter... how long would it take you to find all the data you need (speed, range, aob)? If the AOB dial would be linked to the sub's compass, then in less than a minute you'd know everything about your target and maneuvering for a good shot would be child's play. It would be realistical, but also almost "shoot-em up". The two ways of playing can coexist very well in the same level of difficulty. My feeling is that difficulty should consist of other factors, like escort strength, ai sensors, ai adaptability, torpedo faults and so on. The attack itself might not pose enough of a challenge to differentiate between easy and hard. But the approach, the tactical part, would. That's what being a captain is all about, right?

[Hitman]

I've noticed that the TDC had a Ship Length dial and so the captain might have had a way to calculate the ship's speed through the TDC

If you are referring to the real life TDC (Not the in-game TDC) then that dial was used for calculating salvo spreads along the ship's hull. Not for calculating ship's speed, which was done directly by chronometer and fixed line, plotting or simple estimation based on ship wake size and seaman's eye

in less than a minute you'd know everything about your target and maneuvering for a good shot would be child's play. It would be realistical, but also almost "shoot-em up".

Well it was a shoot-em up in the early years! But it changed later, so no complaints from me here... the real challenge for U-Boat commanders in WW2 was not targetting, but getting close enough to shoot.

I think the strategic dynamic campaign elements will add the most gameplay. As designed, when you attack a supply convoy it will affect the land battles, the routes of future convoys, and the enemy's ASW response.

I'd much happily trade that for wolfpacks, but OK

[karamazovnew]

Originally Posted by Hitman

If you are referring to the real life TDC (Not the in-game TDC) then that dial was used for calculating salvo spreads along the ship's hull. Not for calculating ship's speed, which was done directly by chronometer and fixed line, plotting or simple estimation based on ship wake size and seaman's eye

Phew, I almost began to thing that the germans had it too easy On the other hand, I don't understand why they didn't develop such a feature Oh well, more to do for us... or the guy we put at the periscope

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

AI Wolfpacks are .... well, they don't know yet if they will be in the game, if they will be very minimal, like AOD. I hope they are able to include AI wolfpacks, I think it would be a big letdown not to have "shadow convoy" objectives, where you must stay in contact with a convoy, not get too close so you are driven under and you lose the convoy; not too far away that you lose the convoy in the night; not attack until the other U-boats are in position (breaking that order and you lose command). This would add a lot of gameplay to the SH series and I believe it must be included.

I agree wholeheartedly. We've been screaming about Wolfpacks since SH3. If we got a fully modeled interior of the sub (which, while I'm sure looks pretty cool, adds absolutely nothing to gameplay) and no wolfpacks (which would add tremendously to gameplay)...I think that would be a huge oversight and a very severe case of misplaced priorities. SH4 made the mistake of placing eye candy over gameplay (heck, you can even take it a step further to say it made the mistake of placing eye candy over having a working game) and I'd hate to see the same mistake repeated with SH5.

It's so integral to the Battle of the Atlantic that not having wolfpacks in a U-boat game is like not having a Type VII submarine in the game.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I agree wholeheartedly. We've been screaming about Wolfpacks since SH3. If we got a fully modeled interior of the sub (which, while I'm sure looks pretty cool, adds absolutely nothing to gameplay) and no wolfpacks (which would add tremendously to gameplay)...I think that would be a huge oversight and a very severe case of misplaced priorities. SH4 made the mistake of placing eye candy over gameplay (heck, you can even take it a step further to say it made the mistake of placing eye candy over having a working game) and I'd hate to see the same mistake repeated with SH5.

It's so integral to the Battle of the Atlantic that not having wolfpacks in a U-boat game is like not having a Type VII submarine in the game.

Great post mookie