Modern sub simulators

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Ori_b

In the end, what made sonalysts games great (in the eyes of too few players at least) was their complexity regarding sonar moddeling, and handling of other stations in a modern sub.

And i dont think we will be saved by a future "Silent-hunter 9" either.
The SH series (hence the developers experience) is nothing like the sonalysts titels in terms of station/sonar modeling and the nature of the missions/campaigns. Would a fan of the SC/DW/688I games settle for a shiny graphics/simple station modeling?
And no, i dont think the SH is arcady or something its just very different.

I think the same... SC and DW contain such a load of science and engineering that I think a non specialist would have big problems in coming even close to such quality

In some site I found those numbers about Sonalyst's sims sales:
- 688i H/K 400'000 copies
- Fleet Command 400'000 copies
- Sub Command 200'000 copies
- DW: i couldnt find any info

[kstanb]

For me, the main problem with DW and SC is the lack of dynamic campaings like the ones you see in WW2 Silent Hunter series.

I like to cruise the ocean not knowing what kind of threat I am going to face, in DW you already know you will get action soon

I am puzzled Sonalyst didn't do something as simple as re-creating a dynamic campaign like 1988's "Red Storm Rising" game or any equivalent cold war era conflict.

does anybody know if there a modern sub game with dynamic campaings?

[JamesT73J]

SC and DW - for me - didn't really fit with dynamic campaigns. For starters, some missions play for hours, if not days, if you want them to. The sub vs sub stuff is utterly riveting. I'm not sure a DC would bring much to the table.

80% of DW is mastering the sensor picture and bringing weapons to bear on a target; this in itself can be a fascinating exercise. SHIII/IV, while great, tending to be fairly similar once you got the procedure licked. It feels a bit more like an RPG on a small ship.

[kstanb]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

SC and DW - for me - didn't really fit with dynamic campaigns. For starters, some missions play for hours, if not days, if you want them to. The sub vs sub stuff is utterly riveting. I'm not sure a DC would bring much to the table.

I haven't played SC and DW enough to assess if they will fit within a dynamic campaign, I know some missions are very detailed, but you will be surprised only the first time you play a mission, after that you will know who you are playing against and prepare accordingly

Cold war era submarine warfare for sure can fit into a dynamic campaign. I still miss old "Red Storm Rising", with all its flaws and inacuracies, it was a great immersion, even RPG experience. It is a pitty that no one has created a sub sim that let you roam the seas, periodically getting updates from HQ, and tracking your sensors, not giving for granted anything.
Like: maybe that faint contact is a russian sub, maybe it is just a trawler, maybe it is French sub, you can spend hours tracking it just to discover that it is neutral, and you need to disengage without a fight.

Moreover, dynamic campaigns vs single missions are not zero-sum, you have both in Silent Hunter, and both are amazing

[FIREWALL]

Could the passing of the owner of Sonalyst's have something to do with nothing new comeing out from them ?

I wouldn't count on UBI.

[kstanb]

Thinking about it, it wouldn't be that difficult to create a cold war era add on/ expansion pack based on SHV:

If it is based on a Soviet career, mid to late 50s :
- same map
- few additional ships to include,
- Foxtrots, Romeos, Juliets, Whiskeys and Novembers can be generally based on Type XXI which will be included in SHV
- few new missions to include
- sub vs sub warfare, modern ASW and missiles would be only challenging part to implement

I have a dream! ... I think I will post it in SHV forum

[Shearwater]

Maybe not completely out of this world. Thinking of SH4, German Uboats in the Indian Ocean have always seemed fairly obscure to me, but they still made an expansion (which is a feat in itself ).
If SHV is as successful as the last two instalments, why not be optimistic?

[Hartmann]

Originally Posted by kstanb

I haven't played SC and DW enough to assess if they will fit within a dynamic campaign, I know some missions are very detailed, but you will be surprised only the first time you play a mission, after that you will know who you are playing against and prepare accordingly

Cold war era submarine warfare for sure can fit into a dynamic campaign. I still miss old "Red Storm Rising", with all its flaws and inacuracies, it was a great immersion, even RPG experience. It is a pitty that no one has created a sub sim that let you roam the seas, periodically getting updates from HQ, and tracking your sensors, not giving for granted anything.
Like: maybe that faint contact is a russian sub, maybe it is just a trawler, maybe it is French sub, you can spend hours tracking it just to discover that it is neutral, and you need to disengage without a fight.

Moreover, dynamic campaigns vs single missions are not zero-sum, you have both in Silent Hunter, and both are amazing

Red storm was a amazing game, and only in a floppy disk. I think that the campaign was the best thing of the game

I remember very well the campaign and i found a lot of times unexpected contacts, sometimes a diesel sub, very difficult because you are traveling at 15-30 knts and the distance of the engagament is very close.
Or groups of unknow contacts, ships, subs, mixed groups, and all in the context of a big campaign , where you have to resupply in base after you expend all torpedoes and missiles or in case of damage.

it involves important decisions for example go to repair to port or not

And finally you can play 10 times and always is different.

I think that the only hope of a modern submarine game is in the hands of sonalyst and Ubisoft
sonalist have modeled all ASW tech but lacks in campaign and graphics, and ubi the opposite , very good campaign , great graphics , but not ASW and sonars.

[kstanb]

Originally Posted by Hartmann

Red storm was a amazing game, and only in a floppy disk. I think that the campaign was the best thing of the game

Unbeliavable to think that all that was was possible to do with a floppy disk

I remember it was so funny to single-handly sink the entire Soviet navy, plus they always kept comming, no matter how bad you beat them. Or getting the "news" about soviet tanks rolling through Germany, Spetnaz in iceland or a carrier sunk by Tu-22s

As per new modern sub simulators.. my guess is that Ubisoft is going completely into another direction with SHV (more role playing, crew "abilities", awesome graphs) to better appeal to console gamers, I see little chance there

And regarding Sonalyst, they haven't changed their software engine since 688(i)/ SC/ DW, therefore they are definitively out of the "console"/ "general population market...
so who knows, they might focus into our niche market with a extended/ improved version of DW? it won't be that expensive to revamp the existing platform

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by kstanb

As per new modern sub simulators.. my guess is that Ubisoft is going completely into another direction with SHV (more role playing, crew "abilities", awesome graphs) to better appeal to console gamers, I see little chance there

I agree with your assessment, but unfortunately I dislike every single point you've mentioned. Especially the role playing thing pisses me off immensely. What I dislike the most is the "stoy-telling" thing that has infected almost all game genres since the mid 2000s. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but most porn movies probably have a better plot
I'd just like to have a decent simulator again - by which I mean an environment that is simulated with a reasonable degree of realism but doesn't confine me to some goofy plot.

[kstanb]

Another possibility would be if Sonalyst decides to lease their engine, something like Paradox Interactive did with their old Europa engine (the one used for Hearts of Iron2, Europa Universalis, Victoria, etc.)

So, someone interested in improving DW and making money in the process might get interested, I think this niche market might be small, but big enough for an independent developer

[Theta Sigma]

As I said in another thread, Sonalysts would do well by licensing or selling off DW to another developer who can build a new engine. I think this is really the only solution considering the defense contract is so important to them that they strangle DW almost to abandonware by it.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by Theta Sigma

As I said in another thread, Sonalysts would do well by licensing or selling off DW to another developer who can build a new engine. I think this is really the only solution considering the defense contract is so important to them that they strangle DW almost to abandonware by it.

Not necessarily required. Any other developer could develop their own modern submarine simulation without having to buy DW license at all. Especially if they intend to develop their sub sim around their own new engine one which is far superior than what the current DW has to offer

We are too fixated on DW and sonalysts.

[Castout]

Originally Posted by JamesT73J

SC and DW - for me - didn't really fit with dynamic campaigns. For starters, some missions play for hours, if not days, if you want them to. The sub vs sub stuff is utterly riveting. I'm not sure a DC would bring much to the table.

80% of DW is mastering the sensor picture and bringing weapons to bear on a target; this in itself can be a fascinating exercise. SHIII/IV, while great, tending to be fairly similar once you got the procedure licked. It feels a bit more like an RPG on a small ship.

No more excuses. Take a look at Silent Hunter III. If it can be done with a WWII sub sim it can be done with modern sub sim

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by Castout

Not necessarily required. Any other developer could develop their own modern submarine simulation without having to buy DW license at all. Especially if they intend to develop their sub sim around their own new engine one which is far superior than what the current DW has to offer

We are too fixated on DW and sonalysts.

I agree. DW has been the last bit of life that could be squeezed out of the old engine.
It would also be interesting to see a different approach to the subject. DW's background as a trainig tool is palpable - every station is a bit a simulator of its own, but they are somewhat loosely connected. It would be nice if some company would make a game with a more coherent feel to it.