President webcasts to all the schoolkids....

[Safe-Keeper]

Very good post, Haplo. Thanks a lot for contributing.

[CaptainHaplo]

Steamwake - the "snippets" your talking about are not related to this. Those snippets - and I have heard the entire thing - is something that has been produced by none other than Oprah through a company she owns and it has been disbursed to some schools for viewing by the students.

In it people make "pledges", like working to save the environment, volunteering more in their community, etc. Some are common sense good things, others raise eyebrows - like "I pledge to serve Barack Obama for the good of society". Of course - at the end - the students get a "I know you have a pledge - whats your pledge? Huh, whats your pledge?" while it fades in a picture of BO.

Now - I find that OVERLY OFFENSIVE and BLATENT INDOCTRINATION, but BO and the administration didn't, to my knowledge, request, approve or condone such a thing. Therefore I don't hold BO in any way responsible. Oprah on the other hand.........

[Seth8530]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Actually none of them do anymore.

Please don't speak unless you know what you speak of. I just so happen to be a senior in high school and i have yet to have a school day in all of my 12 years of public school that has started without our pledge.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Notice - yet another RIGHT everyone is supposed to have. This special will be the beginning of an initiative that - you guessed it - focuses on education reform.

The right to an education is indeed a right we all have. We have a public school system, the UN recognizes it as a human right so much so that it's been written into the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The right to an education is indeed a right we all have.

Then I should have the right to withhold the personal property (money) I contribute to that so called right to education.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Then I should have the right to withhold the personal property (money) I contribute to that so called right to education.

We all reap the benefits of an educated society.

[CaptainHaplo]

Mookie - in the US you currently have an OBLIGATION to education - as your parents are held responsible if you are not in school up to age 16 (or unless you are emancipated).

However, the key here is the "get schooled" initiative is NOT aimed at elementary, middle or high schoolers. It is aimed at those eligible for COLLEGE. The key here is that the reform currently looks to be primarily a push for government sponsored (aka taxpayer funded) free college to everyone. Yet another way to grow governmnt.

I have no issue with BASIC education being both a right and responsibility. ****For the record - any true right comes with its own responsibility****

I do, as many others likely will, have issues of the government finding new programs to use as excuses to take my money. No other person but me has the right to go learn to be a brain surgeon on my dime, unless I choose to pay for it.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

I do, as many others likely will, have issues of the government finding new programs to use as excuses to take my money. No other person but me has the right to go learn to be a brain surgeon on my dime, unless I choose to pay for it.

I have no problem with a government subsidized higher education system. The benefits of living in a society of brain surgeons and rocket scientists are a lot greater than living in one of ditch diggers and bus drivers.

More education means better jobs means greater economic output means higher GDP means better economy means higher living standards for all. I think it's a fine investment. I'd much rather they spend our tax dollars on that instead of the military industrial complex.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I have no problem with a government subsidized higher education system. The benefits of living in a society of brain surgeons and rocket scientists are a lot greater than living in one of ditch diggers and bus drivers.

More education means better jobs means greater economic output means higher GDP means better economy means higher living standards for all. I think it's a fine investment. I'd much rather they spend our tax dollars on that instead of the military industrial complex.

Yeah, but you're living in a dream world. Society still needs bus drivers, ditch diggers, and hamburger flippers. Not all of us can be engineers, surgeons, or scientists. Those that have the initiative and drive will do it.

There is no big push currently for "Universal college" right now..nor should there be one. I think we've done quite well in the past without it. That simply can't be disputed. I prefer people with drive, committment, and initiative in college. Not every dope with a pipe dream, and a government subsidized fund. Believe me....we will always produce engineers, doctors, and scientists despite the lack of some type of "universal college" in higher learning. That is, as long as liberals don't disincentivize that as well. Or if they continue to pursue and expand their fantasy dreams of pushing qualified candidates out, to make room for unqualified/non-competitive candidates ala affirmative action programs and such.

One thing I learned when I was in college.......not everyone around me was cut out for college.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

I prefer people with drive, committment, and initiative in college.

I don't disagree. I'm not in favor of lowering academic admission standards. If someone's grades or drive keep them out of college, so be it. But ability to pay should not.

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

...we will always produce engineers, doctors, and scientists despite the lack of some type of "universal college" in higher learning.

How many more would we have with college being affordable to a wider swath of society? And would the increased tax revenues on the overall higher incomes not pay for the investment?

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

How many more would we have with college being affordable to a wider swath of society? And would the increased tax revenues on the overall higher incomes not pay for the investment?

You're talking about something else entirely. I like the idea of college costs being more affordable. That certainly would have helped me get my initial BS degree, with more sleep. But that's not anything the government, through taxpayers should be making possible.

I don't see everyone who wants to be a surgeon, actually qualified or capable of becoming surgeons. So the answer is a definite no.

Those with the drive, and committment have always proven to find a way. I did. There's plenty of scholarships, private grants, and student loan mechanisms to make it possible. And those who plan ahead actually save money to offset some of the costs. I guess, it's just how you prioritize your life and take responsibility for your own education. Society does not benefit by overloading the University system with every bonehead who has a pipe dream. Space is limited, and I prefer those with drive, ability, and commitment to be in those seats.

And yet we still need ditch diggers, and janitors.

If someone's grades or drive keep them out of college, so be it. But ability to pay should not.

Then go to a lower cost community college first and then transfer, take out a loan, apply for scholarships, save up, etc.

If you are committed, you will make it happen. Costs aren't going to stop a driven, responsible, and dedicated person from obtaining a Bachelors degree from an accredited University.

[mookiemookie]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

You're talking about something else entirely. I like the idea of college costs being more affordable. That certainly would have helped me get my initial BS degree, with more sleep. But that's not anything the government, through taxpayers should be making possible.

Why not? If it benefits society as a whole, and it pays for itself through higher tax rolls, I'm for it.

I don't see everyone who wants to be a surgeon, actually qualified or capable of becoming surgeons. So the answer is a definite no.

If someone doesn't have the chops academically to become a surgeon, they wouldn't. Regardless of your ability to pay, if you flunk out, you flunk out.

Society does not benefit by overloading the University system with every bonehead who has a pipe dream. Space is limited, and I prefer those with drive, ability, and commitment to be in those seats.

We're still on a different page here. Making things more affordable only increases the pool of potential students. It doesn't lower academic standards or overload the university system.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

Why not? If it benefits society as a whole, and it pays for itself through higher tax rolls, I'm for it.

Because as I said before.....I doubt the benefits you claim to society. Not everyone has the ability to do the work. Higher tax rolls will only put pressure on taxpayers. And shift burden and risk to those who actually pay the taxes. And there are only so many seats. I paid for my own higher education. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for everybody else. I actually think society benefits more by pushing people to take more responsibility for their own outcomes. And that includes education. Not to be weak, fearful, and dependent on the government.

If someone doesn't have the chops academically to become a surgeon, they wouldn't. Regardless of your ability to pay, if you flunk out, you flunk out.

Yeah, but then you wasted my tax dollars, where I could have used those dollars for my own education or anything else I may prioritize in my life. Paying for people who are likely to flunk out is not what I want to do. And it's wasteful. Make the people who want a higher education take the risk and use their own mechanism to make their own higher education possible. There are means to do this you know.

Making things more affordable only increases the pool of potential students. It doesn't lower academic standards or overload the university system.

Not completely true. Even though making college costs more affordable would be beneficial, my undergraduate alma mater (SJSU) simply cannot admit everyone who applies to it's programs each year. If you are applying situations like affirmative action type/race based/academic hardship cases before qualified, deserving and hardworking candidates, you are indeed lowering the academic environment. Also, you could say the cost factor is a result of supply/demand. Not enough seats for everybody who "wishes" to attend. Nevertheless, those who are driven towards higher education won't let cost stop them. There are ways to do it without the "universal" option you seem to ascribe to. Go to community college, take out a loan or two, save up and plan, earn a scholarship, apply for grants. Those who are qualified and may not have alot of money already know this. And they will get the job done. Society will be fine.

[CaptainHaplo]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I'd much rather they spend our tax dollars on that instead of the military industrial complex.

Well Mookie, thats your right. The key is the word OUR! I would rather our tax money keep this nation free. We see if different. What I think we should be doing is you get to say what your tax dollars do, and I get to do the same. That way, if you want to help educate someone with what the government takes from you - you can. On the other hand, if I don't want my money going to some dope who decides to go to college on the government dime just to keep from getting a real job, I could do that too.

Now, you do have some good points about making college more affordable.
I agree that it should be - and also more able to take in those that truly want to make it happen for themselves. Educated citizens WILL increase the tax base, though I would rather see that so that we have lower taxes vs the government getting more to spend. Regardless, I would propose a different direction with it.

Making education "easy" is not the way to do it. Instead, how about work degrees, where you OJT part of the time. If you do, that time that is spent is creditted to you not only educationally, but you would earn a monetary CREDIT toward the cost of the education. Many college systems use this for some degrees as it is. For example, dental students locally can work at a local dental clinic for the underpriviledged and earn a small amount, as well as get on the job training and education credit. By the time they graduate, they have some real experience that is also worthwhile to them. I understand hairdressers, massage therapists and some auto mechanic "degree" programs use the same principle.

I would remind you that in many ways - the "untouchable system" of healthcare operates the same way - many times you see more internists and residents than you do full doctors. Sure there needs to be the initial groundwork of classroom effort, but doctors have realized that the best learning is done - on the job.

Lets really shake this up and take it to the true economic effect this could have. How many of you worry about an elderly parent or friend? Maybe they have car problems and cannot afford to pay for the repair? Local OJT mechanic shop through the community college could help keep that cost low. How about IT degrees? Small businesses could really keep technology costs low by working with a local OJT trade shop, since the cost would be low, it would be overseen by an experienced teacher, etc etc. The possibilities are endless. About the only field it wouldn't work in - is lawyers. And we have too many of them as it is.

Its true we will always have to have ditch diggers. People to pick apples or grapes or whatever. Nothing wrong with that. The thing to remember is that we should provide a system where they CAN - if they are willing to WORK at it - do more for themself. Therein lies the one thing people fail to remember about the American Dream. You have the right to PURSUE happiness - the right to the OPPORTUNITY to move ahead, but its not going to be given to you.

Subsidizing every person who wants to go to college isn't the answer. Who here has heard the saying - What is free you discount, what costs you, you cherish?

I am going to give a personal example. My ex-wife chooses to sit around at her house all day long. She has a total of 10 people, including herself, living there. Of those, 3 are small children. The rest are teens or adults. For 7 years she has been "going to college" by taking classes online. During that time she has collected welfare, food stamps and other state and federal benefits for herself, her husband, her other children and at times her grandchildren. Not to mention every "educational grant" she could get her hands on. This is a woman who is now around forty - and after 7 years just "graduated" and acquired her 2 year degree. During that entire time frame, she worked less than 1 year total.

What do you think she has done with that degree? Absolutely nothing, unless you count it as work filling out more paperwork to get more "grants" to "continue" her education. And all the while, she whines how its not fair because she is sooooo poor and can't even pay the child support she is supposed to for our son. God forbid anyone expect her to actually get a job though. She is an example of a person who abuses the system. And while it is a personal experience, it is by no means unique.

Ultimately - any higher education reform that uses tax dollars from those of us that work and pay taxes, needs to have some assurance that such funds are not wasted by abusers like the above. The State of North Carolina for example, will pay for you to get a teaching degree. The cost - you sign a contract to work in the State education system for four years afterwards (at an average salary) before you take your degree somewhere else. That kind of thing - an "insurance" that protects the funds it costs, is the kind of thing I could support.

Will parents be allowed in the class room during this presentation? How about folks without chidren, who pay for the education of others? Will they be allowed to see the presentation live?