I wonder if convoys and ships will zig zig?

[Blood_splat]

[GreyOctober]

Haven't they always?

[Blood_splat]

Just when I've blown my cover.:rotfl:

[GoldenRivet]

i would assume their behavior would be SH 4 ish.

what i mean is that while some of the convoy ships are zigging the others will be zagging and it will be a little less predictable and disorganized.

[tater]

Originally Posted by GreyOctober

Haven't they always?

No, they never have.

When warned, they "constant helm," which is NOT zig zagging.

Real ZZs also do not look like the diagram posted. Real ZZ patterns were actually complex. They do this al the time, not just when detected. With the exception of ships dashing at high speeds, most ships in war zones did this all the time. Large convoys used simpler ZZ patterns with longer time scales to simplify station keeping.

Here are some japanese ones:

[karamazovnew]

Great find Tater, I had a hunch the merchant boys were not stupid. I consider myself to be an expert marksman. In SH3/4 I never miss, no really, I never miss, because I plan my shots way ahead of time and alway shoot at 000 gyro angle. And yet I tremble when I see those zig-zag patterns. That would make the game uber hardcore. In SH3/4 even a simple turn of the convoy throws me completely off-balance. However, I'd go with uber hardcore any day .

[difool2]

Ehh-I was able to deal with it in SH1, zig zags would just add some extra spice to the proceedings...

[JU_88]

Doesnt matter if they follow complex zigzag patters or not, Its nearly impossible to hit a zig-zaging target at medium range in SH3 & 4 with Auto targeting.
Might be easier with manual if you are prepared to do some caluclations... I for one am not as I suck a maths.

[Bosje]

it's very easy on manual targeting, the ships still follow a basic course which you can predict and which results in a simple aob and speed for the tdc
all you have to do is shoot at the right moment
zigzag at 9 knots is like a straight course at maybe 6.5 knots. short range and fast torpedo makes it easier

[karamazovnew]

Simple zig-zaging is easy to counter. The speed drops by a few knots and you can decide when to shoot just as the ship starts a turn into you (going for 90 AOB). But that's not what Tater's diagram is about.

You can see there that the entire convoy switches direction by 20 degrees at irregular intervals every 5-10 miles (i don't think it's minutes). That would make shadowing a convoy extremely difficult, the general course of the convoy would need a very long time to "decrypt" and positioning for a perfect 90 shot would be almost impossible. You'd need to rely more on visual observation and less on plotting. For me such a difficulty option would have the same impact on gameplay as "wolfpacks" would. And I believe it's very easy to implement. What do you think Lucian? By the way your name is very familiar to me. Did you study at the Automatics Univeristy here in Bucharest?

[Jimbuna]

I'll simply wait and see....anything close to reality has got to be a bonus.

[nattydread]

Zig-Zags required getting close, not sitting 90 degs of the corse, but instead point a bit at an angle into the direction they coming from...that puts you closer to 90 degs of their zig or zag course.

Get in relativly close, take final firing data just as they finish their latest zig or zag...the fire!...using a speed slightly less than than their actual speed worked a lot too(i tended to hedge my bets and fire one torp using this and actual data).

[Sailor Steve]

But there are several accounts of submarines setting up a convoy or warship, only to have it turn away at the worst possible time. Likewise stories of captains frustrated at not being able to intercept, only to have the target suddenly turn right into the line of fire.

Real zig-zags were unpredictable, and were designed to frustrate submarine attacks. They didn't just make the same turns back and forth every few minutes.

[tater]

US patterns were similar to the jap ones I posted.

No ZZs is profoundly unrealistic.

It is possible to ZZ groups in the patterns shown above in SH4, I've done it.

The number of waypoints, however, becomes ridiculous. I started messing with this, and found that I had to make .mis layers of no more than 4-6 groups of ships, since each group literally made many tens of thousands of waypoints, even for fairly direct runs. More crashed the editor.

Also, and this is critical, the AI simply could not handle it set to the real time intervals. The AI needs to be designed with ZZ stationkeeping in mind

Having ships/convoys ZZ realistically is far more important than useless interior eyecandy, IMO. I say, "useless" for a reason. I realize there is some immersion to be had, but with the player as skipper, there is really little to do. even as crew, what would you do, season the soup better to improve morale? Walk around with an oil can, and lube up the engine?

Proper target dynamics are infinitely more important.

Originally Posted by tater

I say, "useless" for a reason. I realize there is some immersion to be had, but with the player as skipper, there is really little to do. even as crew, what would you do, season the soup better to improve morale? Walk around with an oil can, and lube up the engine?

Proper target dynamics are infinitely more important.

well someone needs to replace the toilet paper in the head it may as well be the skipper because it definately effects crew moral

i agree, lets gets the game fully functioning and iron out those AI issues as the priority and eye candy and stuff can be done later