AI Wolfpacks?

[Grothesj2]

Originally Posted by longam

Even in Falcon 4 you flew in formation with 3 other AI. They followed your lead, flew at your alt, and would span out or close up by your command. They could even change formation and would not attack until given the order to do so.

I see this as a bases on a basic wolf pack AI and is very possible to do.

Heck, look at IL-2 with even more aircraft buzzing around and shooting at each other, all in three dimensions with AA fire and targets, bomb strikes, machinegun fire from fighters and bombers, rockets.....

No way I'll believe that they can't come up with a passable AI for friendly subs. AI doesn't even have to be exceptionally good as how many U-boat captains were wasted on thier first or second patrol? A novice and veteran U-boat captain AI setting should be fine for the AI and niether as crafty as a live player. You are after all supposed to be the star U-boat ace in the game.

[java`s revenge]

Originally Posted by Grothesj2

Heck, look at IL-2 with even more aircraft buzzing around and shooting at each other, all in three dimensions with AA fire and targets, bomb strikes, machinegun fire from fighters and bombers, rockets.....

No way I'll believe that they can't come up with a passable AI for friendly subs. AI doesn't even have to be exceptionally good as how many U-boat captains were wasted on thier first or second patrol? A novice and veteran U-boat captain AI setting should be fine for the AI and niether as crafty as a live player. You are after all supposed to be the star U-boat ace in the game.

You are right.
For example the ai in IL2 was very good.
But when you take an exemple of Red Orchestra, they are
very dumb.

But i indeed think that it would be possible.

[tomoose]

Originally Posted by Mittelwaechter

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Let the AI radio a convoy and when I'm close and in position I send my ok and the wolfpack leader orders to attack.

Or I radio the convoy position and have to shadow it. After a while I get response of two comrades at the other side of the convoy to be in position and I start the attack.

The convoy has some random chosen ships with 'torpedo damage function' - they'll be hit by 'magnetic eels of the imaginary comrades'.
Two DDs leave the screen and start to DC an area somewhere on the other side of the convoy...

I even scripted a single player mission like that (U42 Wolfpack) back in 2005.

BINGO! Well said Mittelwaechter! I couldn't agree more. As long as the effect of the Wolfpack is simulated I'm sold (i.e. the convoys react to a NPC U-boat and can be attacked by a NPC U-boat etc while you are trying to link up and join the fray). No requirement for anything else regarding Wolfpacks except the comms to and fro between the U-boats (while surfaced obviously) to zero in on contacts etc. No fancy graphics really required at all except for eye candy.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by tomoose

BINGO! Well said Mittelwaechter! I couldn't agree more. As long as the effect of the Wolfpack is simulated I'm sold (i.e. the convoys react to a NPC U-boat and can be attacked by a NPC U-boat etc while you are trying to link up and join the fray). No requirement for anything else regarding Wolfpacks except the comms to and fro between the U-boats (while surfaced obviously) to zero in on contacts etc. No fancy graphics really required at all except for eye candy.

Sure, but please consider this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...0&postcount=75

[Wild_skipper]

You want wolfpacks : <---- there you go wolfpacks ! ( it even contains an interview with karl dönitz after the war lol )

[Arclight]

Thanks, that was an hour well spend.

[Platapus]

I don't see what the enjoyment would be in wolfpacks. Watching an AI controlled submarine sink ships is not my idea of a fun game.

I want to set up and sink ships!

Imagine how pissed you would be if you were trying to set up a shot and some AI sub sunk it first?

However, gamers are different. I think the gamers who want wolfpacks should have them. As long as I can turn them off I have no problems.

It is the "lone wolf" aspect of submarine warfare that appeals to me. I don't want to be just number 1 of 4.

[longam]

Originally Posted by Wild_skipper

You want wolfpacks : <---- there you go wolfpacks ! ( it even contains an interview with karl dönitz after the war lol )

Great show...

Looks like wolf packs were only effective early on, just like the uboat itself.

[difool2]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I don't see what the enjoyment would be in wolfpacks. Watching an AI controlled submarine sink ships is not my idea of a fun game.

I want to set up and sink ships!

Imagine how pissed you would be if you were trying to set up a shot and some AI sub sunk it first?

I'd be pleased that my teammate helped us win the battle if not the war. Your attitude would probably get you bounced out of the captaincy ASAP (or result in you not getting it in the first place).

[JU_88]

It not all just about wolf packs, hostile submarines could also make for very intense and interesting battle situations....

Dont belive me? please watch this video about HMS Ventura (British) U-class submarine Sinking U-864 (Type IX D2)
While both vessels were submerged


Id trade a convoy of Tankers for an SHV moment like this any day...

[tomoose]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Sure, but please consider this:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...0&postcount=75

Actually I think that helps prove my point. Adding "physical" AI subs would definitely be a recipe for more bugs and performance hits as opposed to "virtual" AI subs contrary to what is stated in the link. Perhaps the devs could make that an option to switch on or off depending on your system (now that would be nice to have!!!)

1) Acheive the same Wolfpack effect for virtually the same amount of work. (Your proposal is not all far off from being an AI sub with no 3d model attached.)I highly doubt the same amount of work. If you're adding 'physical' objects then you're program/system takes a hit.

2) Adds the realsim of the Subs physicial existance - rather than being virtual. Who cares? Realistically you'd almost never see your Wolfpack colleagues.

3) Allow for encounters, interception & engament with Enermy subs, even if the devs dont include any models for Non-German sub types - we can!
HMS Ventura notwithstanding that was a very rare occurrence in the war and IMHO not worth considering for SH5.

4) it would help pave the way for a Destoyer command addon or mod. This I would agree with wholeheartedly.

5) Allow the player to see friendly subs traveling to and from portThis was achieved in SH3 already and IMHO is still only eye candy

6) Allow for properly behaved Milchows (resupply Uboats) This makes sense and is an easy fix as it was simulated in SH3

7) Allows the player to embark on side missions where they could Aid another U-boat in distress. OK, but seriously, not a huge part of the overall game.

8) Allow for the construction of an Ai topedo controller that can also be attached to surface vessles like the 'impotent' PT boat. This is a seperate issue altogether and I don't see it being linke to the virtual wolfpack issue at all. Completely different programming aspect of the game.

[JU_88]

In Orange....

Originally Posted by tomoose

Actually I think that helps prove my point. Adding "physical" AI subs would definitely be a recipe for more bugs and performance hits as opposed to "virtual" AI subs contrary to what is stated in the link. Perhaps the devs could make that an option to switch on or off depending on your system (now that would be nice to have!!!)

1) Acheive the same Wolfpack effect for virtually the same amount of work. (Your proposal is not all far off from being an AI sub with no 3d model attached.)I highly doubt the same amount of work. If you're adding 'physical' objects then you're program/system takes a hit.

So you program a random Trigger to myseriouly blow up ships? then fool the AI Escorts to go and depth charging them, then some how the Ai need to know when to stop Depthchageing nothing?
Its going look very silly if it happens 2- 3000 meters away, when you have external cam enabled (maybe you dont). The whole thing will look very strange - like a huge bug in itself to most players.

to the second point -Rubbish! -an extra one or two Uboat models on the scene would make NO noticable hit to 3d performance whatsoever.
Have you seen this happen in SH3 or 4? with an extra two ships or and extra two docked subs in a port? I urge you to run a Fraps test as proof of this.
Or are you saying the addional AI scripts will somehow slow the game down? That would be a first in video games......

2) Adds the realsim of the Subs physicial existance - rather than being virtual.Who cares? Realistically you'd almost never see your Wolfpack colleagues.
Some truth in that,yes but dont forget about the external camera which MOST people use.

3) Allow for encounters, interception & engament with Enermy subs, even if the devs dont include any models for Non-German sub types - we can!
HMS Ventura notwithstanding that was a very rare occurrence in the war and IMHO not worth considering for SH5.NOt that rare - Allied submarines sunk
Granted that was the only recorded submerged battle, but encounters were not that rare, Especially in the Mediterenian which was heavily patrolled by subs of both sides.

19 Uboats were destroyed by Allied Submarines.
http://uboat.net/fates/sub-sunk.htm
Only 4 'British subs' were destroyed by U-Boats, (not including other nations)
But consider how many more encounters and unsuccessfull attacks there were between subs on top of this.
It would 'on occacsion' present a more interesting tatical situation- than the usual merchant/escort scenario.

4) it would help pave the way for a Destoyer command addon or mod. This I would agree with wholeheartedly.
No argument

5) Allow the player to see friendly subs traveling to and from portThis was achieved in SH3 already and IMHO is still only eye candy
Achieved by 'Modders' yes,

6) Allow for properly behaved Milchows (resupply Uboats)This makes sense and is an easy fix as it was simulated in SH3
Again, more modding work and it was far from perfect.

7) Allows the player to embark on side missions where they could Aid another U-boat in distress. OK, but seriously, not a huge part of the overall game.
No it is not - agreed, but again as with point 3), dont you want some rare some occorances on patrol to make things less samey?

8) Allow for the construction of an Ai topedo controller that can also be attached to surface vessles like the 'impotent' PT boat.This is a seperate issue altogether and I don't see it being linke to the virtual wolfpack issue at all. Completely different programming aspect of the game.
Yes it separate, but without AI submarines In SH3 & 4 the Devs had no incentive to make one - so the two are 'entwined'. however I am fairly confident they will have made one for this version. (touch wood)

.

[Arclight]

My eyes, it hurts!!!

[JU_88]

lol, sorry Arclight, is that better now?

[Arclight]

Yeah, I just put on some sunglasses, helps too.