AI Wolfpacks?

[Highbury]

I do not think they would have made an announcement which included new features without mentioning Wolfpacks if they were going to be in.

I don't have high hopes for them to be in SHV.

If we did get them, I imagine a forum full of crying that the AI hit all the big targets before you got a shot off, or scattered your convoy, or set them zig zagging... ended by declarations of "I am not radioing my convoys in anymore" etc etc. Anyone else see this coming? (I know some of us are more about the "war effort" then personal totals, but not many.)

[difool2]

Originally Posted by Gezoes

Yep, I believe GWX was responsible for that? Although they cannot dive and attack only with the deck gun, it's great Sometimes they succeed and when the player meets up with the convoy, some ships may be burning.

Yep-ran across just such a convoy, with several ships with holes, some on fire, and a straggling Nimijen tanker with a 30 degree list (which I finished off, natch).

Well, the Ubi announcement was rather short on specific details, so as more filter out hopefully we'll find out one way or another.

[gordonmull]

If we did get them, I imagine a forum full of crying that the AI hit all the big targets before you got a shot off, or scattered your convoy, or set them zig zagging... ended by declarations of "I am not radioing my convoys in anymore" etc etc. Anyone else see this coming? (I know some of us are more about the "war effort" then personal totals, but not many.)

I know what you're saying but that's immediately balanced by being able to get past the escorts because they're busy wasserbombing some other poor (AI) soul.

Plus, the reward system doesn't need to be about racking up points for the ships you've sunk yourself. If the points are spread between all boats in contact with the convoy then all personal gain players are then encouraged to make the effort. You might not tag a single merchant but still get points for taking part in the attack.

[pythos]

I think one of the problems with AI subs is when they dive, how deep do they go? This would be more of a factor for an AI enemy sub that is attacking you. Sure they could at first be at periscope depth, but what about when they want to avoid a torpedo solution from you being successful?

But when evading other ships, how deep to go without A0hitting the bottom, and B) going below crush depth.

These I think would cause quite a bit of headache when it comes to AI subs.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by pythos

I think one of the problems with AI subs is when they dive, how deep do they go? This would be more of a factor for an AI enemy sub that is attacking you. Sure they could at first be at periscope depth, but what about when they want to avoid a torpedo solution from you being successful?

But when evading other ships, how deep to go without A0hitting the bottom, and B) going below crush depth.

These I think would cause quite a bit of headache when it comes to AI subs.

NOt going below crush depth is easy, you just give them a max depth of say 160 - 200 m, just as aircraft have minimum altitude so they dont hit the sea.

However hitting the bottom at shallower depths would present a bigger challenge as the sub has to have a sensor to detect how deep the water is.
That is kinda already in place - the the player can order the CE to report depth under keel - so such a sensor already exsists, I dont know how it works, but it does.

Ai sub needs to be forced to do this check before they dive then respond in a predetermined way. for example:

if depth = 250 -1000 they can go to down to max depth
if depth = 110 - 249 they and go to 90
if depth = 50 -109 they go to 40
if depth = 0 - 49 they go no deeper than peri depth.

Abit tricky but not impossible, far more complex things have been programmed in the past.
No one expects it to be perfect - just reasonable.

[Mittelwaechter]

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Let the AI radio a convoy and when I'm close and in position I send my ok and the wolfpack leader orders to attack.

Or I radio the convoy position and have to shadow it. After a while I get response of two comrades at the other side of the convoy to be in position and I start the attack.

The convoy has some random chosen ships with 'torpedo damage function' - they'll be hit by 'magnetic eels of the imaginary comrades'.
Two DDs leave the screen and start to DC an area somewhere on the other side of the convoy...

I even scripted a single player mission like that (U42 Wolfpack) back in 2005.

[Arclight]

Originally Posted by JU_88

NOt going below crush depth is easy, you just give them a max depth of say 160 - 200 m, just as aircraft have minimum altitude so they dont hit the sea.

However hitting the bottom at shallower depths would present a bigger challenge as the sub has to have a sensor to detect how deep the water is.
That is kinda already in place - the the player can order the CE to report depth under keel - so such a sensor already exsists, I dont know how it works, but it does.

Ai sub needs to be forced to do this check before they dive then respond in a predetermined way. for example:

if depth = 250 -1000 they can go to down to max depth
if depth = 110 - 249 they and go to 90
if depth = 50 -109 they go to 40
if depth = 0 - 49 they go no deeper than peri depth.

Abit tricky but not impossible, far more complex things have been programmed in the past.
No one expects it to be perfect - just reasonable.

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area.

I think it's a more realistic expectation to have wolfpacks in multiplayer only, I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub.

[Jaeger]

ia mnot very optimistic for seeing wolfpacks. the question for me is: why they didnt present it on the first feature list?

[Kaleun_Endrass]

Maybe they´re working on wolfpack AI but aren´t sure they get it done on time and so the feature isn´t listed yet... Stay optimistic.
The only thing we can do is begging UBI and the devs for wolfpack AI.
I would even accept another release date if necessary.

[Annatar]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area.

I don't know why you think some kind of mystical intelligence is needed by the AI to run effectively. The game knows the depth of the ocean at any given point, that's part of the game after all, and anything the game knows can also be shared with the various entities inside the game. AI subs wouldn't have to be constantly pinging the seabed to know these things, they could just know.

I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub.

Why? The AI can quite easily command the various surface veseels. The problem is not and (I suspect) has never been AI routines, but rather with certain hard coded issuse - like spawning torpedo entities which always head North. (Or was it South?)

[Arclight]

You're missing the point; AI knowing the depth at any time is not simulating, and it's a sim after all. Btw it was a response to the mechanic proposed by JU_88. You're taking it out of contest.

Still; fair enough. Dangerous Waters has AI subs, for example.

*tbh, all I'm saying is don't expect it, but consider it a bonus if it's there. imho it's about realistic expectations, since any dicussion is besides the point untill we have confirmation whether or not wolfpacks are included.

[JU_88]

Originally Posted by Mittelwaechter

Do these AI Uboats have to 'exist'?

The imagination would be good enough for me.

Yes they need to actually exist just like all the other units actually exist. If you are prepared to go down the 'imagination' route where do you stop?
Would you be ok if they scrapped aircraft or destoyers and we just 'imagined' there were there instead?

If I want some imagination, Ill just switch off the PC, sit in a dark corner 'imagining' being a Uboat comander .

Originally Posted by Arclight

Problem is depth-sounding is done with active sonar. An AI sub taking a depth reading regularly would alert any escorts in the area.

I think it's a more realistic expectation to have wolfpacks in multiplayer only, I just don't think any AI is capable of effectively commanding a sub.

Come now, it not as if an AI sub has never been done before, as i said - far more complex thing have been coded than this, Ai subs need not be much more complicated that Ai for an aircraft in a flight sim.

In reply to your first point, I wasnt suggesting for a second that the Sub actually 'pings' the ocean floor. All that matters is that it can determine the depth. Just an aircraft can determine where the ground is with out needing to physically do anything special.

As you say above DW has AI subs, it is NOT an unrealistic expectation at all.
It is no more unrealistic than expecting a full 3d sub interior with crew going about their business. - that would have been much harder to code than a poxy AI sub.
(And they have managed that just fine.)

If not enough people support the inclusion of Wolf packs for SHV - or say they dont care - then no, the devs definatley wont bother....

[Arclight]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Yes they need to actually exist just like all the other units actually exist. If you are prepared to go down the 'imagination' route where do you stop?
Would you be ok if they scrapped aircraft or destoyers and we just 'imagined' there were there instead?

If I want some imagination, Ill just switch off the PC, sit in a dark corner 'imagining' being a Uboat comander .



Come now, it not as if an AI sub has never been done before, as i said - far more complex thing have been coded than this, Ai subs need not be much more complicated that Ai for an aircraft in a flight sim.

In reply to your first point, I wasnt suggesting for a second that the Sub actually 'pings' the ocean floor. All that matters is that it can determine the depth. Just an aircraft can determine where the ground is with out needing to physically do anything special.

As you say above DW has AI subs, it is NOT an unrealistic expectation at all.
It is no more unrealistic than expecting a full 3d sub interior with crew going about their business. - that would have been much harder to code than a poxy AI sub.
(And they have managed that just fine.)

If not enough people support the inclusion of Wolf packs for SHV - or say they dont care - then no, the devs definatley wont bother....

Airplanes, or rather pilots, can see the ground, subs/captains can't see the bottom. For a (AI) sub to determine depth, without cheating, it needs to use active sonar for depth sounding.

Why do people want wolfpacks/AI subs, but don't want them properly simulated? Is it more important to have wolfpacks/AI subs than an authentic, realistic simulation?

Yes, I'd like to see wolfpacks, all I'm saying is don't get your hopes up untill we have some official word. If it's really that simply as people suggest, they would have been there already.

[JU_88]

Dont matter if the Ai subs 'cheat' to determine depth,
The Escort/merchent AI cheats all the time anyway,
One example is that they can see you though land mass, and look at the speed at which they can 'stop' or accelarate when they need to avoid collision
Anyone remember the AIs 'Vampire vision' at night?

It doesn't need to be perfect, just so long as its THERE and works to a reasonable level.
- if need be modders can tweak it.

Id rather have AI subs that crash in to the ocean floor at shallow depths - than none at all.
At least you will get to see them working properly far out to sea (where the player will mostly be operating anyway.)

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Arclight

Airplanes, or rather pilots, can see the ground, subs/captains can't see the bottom. For a (AI) sub to determine depth, without cheating, it needs to use active sonar for depth sounding.

yes, for an accurate depth determination, but don't forget we've got nav maps. If I see on my nav map I'm in shallow waters I don't set my depth to 300 m. So if we can guesstimate the depth ourselves, why would it be cheating if an AI sub did the same thing?

Besides I don't think it would be that hard to code. We've got controllers for merchants/DD's/BB's etc. already, take one of those and add a depth controller, e.g. as soon as the AI sub can pick up enemy sonar it dives to 200 m, when the AI can't hear any more ships on its hydrophones it resurfaces.

Originally Posted by Annatar

The problem is not and (I suspect) has never been AI routines, but rather with certain hard coded issuse - like spawning torpedo entities which always head North. (Or was it South?)

nah, I don't think this is a big problem. They can spawn DC's and shells all heading into the right direction so why would it be so hard to do the same thing with torpedoes? calculating a right solution would be the only problem, but since the game has got code already for doing this for the player sub this shouldn't be too hard to overcome either.
Besides, I already solved the problem of AI launched torpedoes always heading north. check this thread: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=154068. don't expect a wunderwaffe but at least they don't head north.