Not something you see every day

SUBMAN1 · 08-02-09, 03:32 PM

2 x Indian SU-30's, 2 x IAF Mirage 2000's, and 2 x US F-15's.

Just looking at those SU-30's next to the F-15's, I get the sense that the Russians continue to copy our aircraft. Even their heavy lift AN looks like a C-5. Its like they are about 10 years behind on any aircraft development.

-S

GoldenRivet · 08-02-09, 05:33 PM

What?

Russia copy Western aircraft?

not a chance!

(seen the Tupelov TU-4?)

Rhodes · 08-02-09, 05:42 PM

Hummm, I wonder were did they copy this from?

08-02-09, 05:45 PM

Could never happen.......no copying here.......externally it does happen, the inards are a different story entirely. We all know that.

08-03-09, 12:51 AM

Russian stuff just looks cooler, honestly.

I should learn Russian one of these days.

Either that or Arabic.

TarJak · 08-03-09, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rilder

I should learn Russian one of these days.

Either that or Arabic.

Just wait till the next government makes it mandatory.

sharkbit · 08-03-09, 07:57 AM

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

sharkbit · 08-03-09, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

What?

Russia copy Western aircraft?

not a chance!

(seen the Tupelov TU-4?)

Small excerpt from Wikipedia:

Quote:

The U.S. refused to supply the Soviet Union with B-29 heavy bombers under Lend Lease, despite repeated Soviet requests.[1] However, on three occasions during 1944, individual B-29s made emergency landings in Soviet territory after bombing raids on Japanese Manchuria and Japan. In accordance with Soviet neutrality in the Pacific War, the bombers were interned and kept by the Soviets, despite American demands for their return.[2] Tupolev OKB studied them and dismantled one airframe, while Stalin ordered Tupolev and his design bureau to copy the B-29s down to their smallest details, and produce a design ready for quantity production as soon as possible. Tupolev duly copied the B-29s bolt-by-bolt where possible, reverse engineering the design where necessary.

Max2147 · 08-03-09, 10:02 AM

The Russians do copy some stuff, but I think it's overplayed.

The Tu-4 was a straight copy. Stalin ordered that it be identical to the B-29, and Tupolev had to follow that order. Tupolev said that he could improve on the design, but Papa Joe refused and said he wanted a bolt-for-bolt copy.

For the Tu-144, they started copying the Concorde, but the British caught it pretty early. The Brits then decided to have some fun with their Russian counterparts and cooked up some fake designs and passed them off to some French designers who they knew were working for the Russians. One example was a tire compound design, which was basically jelly. The Brits amused themselves with thoughts of the poor Russian scientists pulling their hair out and poring over the data trying to figure out how their super-special tire compounds kept turning out wrong!

Buran was partly copied from the Space Shuttle, although there were some pretty key differences (no rockets on Buran). But the Space Shuttle was never classified. One NASA engineer said that NASA probably would have mailed somebody the blueprints if they had asked. It's worth noting though that Buran was actually a superior design in a lot of ways.

The Russians also tried to copy the 747. They tried to bribe the chief engineer on the project into giving them all the design requirements, but he didn't bite. There was a top-secret tech transfer with the Russians in the 1970s, where Boeing gave the Russians info on podded engines in return for Russian knowledge on titanium (Boeing was trying to build an SST out of titanium). When the next Russian airliner (the Il-86) came out with podded engines, those who didn't know about the tech transfer assumed espionage.

XabbaRus · 08-03-09, 10:38 AM

I do get tired of the copying argument. Yes as Max said they copied some stuff but I can't see how you can acuse the Russians of copying the US when you put a Flanker next to an F-15. Planform is different.

The thing is if you give two independent sets of designers the same problem chances are they will come up with similar looking solutions.

The move with the Tu-4 was very smart and caught the west out. A lot of innovative development came out of that. If you take a look at the protoypes the Russians came up with and some that didn't get past the drawing board you will see that they were capable of coming up with some very advanced thinking. I also wouldn't say they are 10 years behind. No more behind than europe is from the US and I wouldn't say that is very far behind either. Just because we don't make an F-22 type plane doesn't mean we can't.

08-03-09, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

The thing is if you give two independent sets of designers the same problem chances are they will come up with similar looking solutions.

Infinite monkey theorem?

FIREWALL · 08-03-09, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhodes

Hummm, I wonder were did they copy this from?

That aircraft imho is the most beautiful plane that never flew.

btw Firefox is one of my favorite movies.

08-03-09, 01:47 PM

Quote:

The thing is if you give two independent sets of designers the same problem chances are they will come up with similar looking solutions.

Spot on, look at the two British deigns for spar decked frigates from the 1812 war.
The problems arise when you get countries like for example pre WWII America and Britain who look at Japanese designs and write them off as just copies.

Rhodes · 08-03-09, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

That aircraft imho is the most beautiful plane that never flew.

btw Firefox is one of my favorite movies.

I only saw once, have to get it in dvd! It's so rare the channels here, even the with film channels of cable, transmit this film!

To the topic, the projects of the atomic airplane, the russians also copy those or tried to come up with a design of their owne?

08-03-09, 02:19 PM

What is a really interesting exercise is to try to figure what systems of one country provoked a response from the other?

While in college I wrote a paper suggesting that the F-14 was a response to the threat of the MiG-25. My professor shot me down because I had no direct evidence. I'd love to talk about the subject with him today.

08-02-09, 03:32 PM	#1
SUBMAN1 Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 11,866 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Not something you see every day 2 x Indian SU-30's, 2 x IAF Mirage 2000's, and 2 x US F-15's. Just looking at those SU-30's next to the F-15's, I get the sense that the Russians continue to copy our aircraft. Even their heavy lift AN looks like a C-5. Its like they are about 10 years behind on any aircraft development. -S __________________

08-02-09, 05:33 PM	#2
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	What? Russia copy Western aircraft? not a chance! (seen the Tupelov TU-4?) __________________

08-02-09, 05:42 PM	#3
Rhodes Silent Hunter Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Figueira da Foz, Portugal Posts: 4,515 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	Hummm, I wonder were did they copy this from? __________________ http://www.flickr.com/photos/16416646@N05/

08-03-09, 12:51 AM	#5
Rilder Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Russian stuff just looks cooler, honestly. I should learn Russian one of these days. Either that or Arabic. Last edited by Rilder; 08-03-09 at 03:01 AM.

08-03-09, 07:57 AM	#7
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

08-02-09, 05:45 PM	#4
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Could never happen.......no copying here.......externally it does happen, the inards are a different story entirely. We all know that.

08-03-09, 10:02 AM	#9
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The Russians do copy some stuff, but I think it's overplayed. The Tu-4 was a straight copy. Stalin ordered that it be identical to the B-29, and Tupolev had to follow that order. Tupolev said that he could improve on the design, but Papa Joe refused and said he wanted a bolt-for-bolt copy. For the Tu-144, they started copying the Concorde, but the British caught it pretty early. The Brits then decided to have some fun with their Russian counterparts and cooked up some fake designs and passed them off to some French designers who they knew were working for the Russians. One example was a tire compound design, which was basically jelly. The Brits amused themselves with thoughts of the poor Russian scientists pulling their hair out and poring over the data trying to figure out how their super-special tire compounds kept turning out wrong! Buran was partly copied from the Space Shuttle, although there were some pretty key differences (no rockets on Buran). But the Space Shuttle was never classified. One NASA engineer said that NASA probably would have mailed somebody the blueprints if they had asked. It's worth noting though that Buran was actually a superior design in a lot of ways. The Russians also tried to copy the 747. They tried to bribe the chief engineer on the project into giving them all the design requirements, but he didn't bite. There was a top-secret tech transfer with the Russians in the 1970s, where Boeing gave the Russians info on podded engines in return for Russian knowledge on titanium (Boeing was trying to build an SST out of titanium). When the next Russian airliner (the Il-86) came out with podded engines, those who didn't know about the tech transfer assumed espionage.

08-03-09, 10:38 AM	#10
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I do get tired of the copying argument. Yes as Max said they copied some stuff but I can't see how you can acuse the Russians of copying the US when you put a Flanker next to an F-15. Planform is different. The thing is if you give two independent sets of designers the same problem chances are they will come up with similar looking solutions. The move with the Tu-4 was very smart and caught the west out. A lot of innovative development came out of that. If you take a look at the protoypes the Russians came up with and some that didn't get past the drawing board you will see that they were capable of coming up with some very advanced thinking. I also wouldn't say they are 10 years behind. No more behind than europe is from the US and I wouldn't say that is very far behind either. Just because we don't make an F-22 type plane doesn't mean we can't. __________________

08-03-09, 02:19 PM	#15
CastleBravo Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	What is a really interesting exercise is to try to figure what systems of one country provoked a response from the other? While in college I wrote a paper suggesting that the F-14 was a response to the threat of the MiG-25. My professor shot me down because I had no direct evidence. I'd love to talk about the subject with him today.