Gunnery and Campaign Questions

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by jdkbph

Hmmm... last I recall it had been established with overwhelming empirical evidence that, in game terms, the Argo system was far superior to the Dreyer system... such that a Dreyer equipped Brit BB, even one of equal or greater firepower and tactical position, was at a distinct disadvantage to any FC equipped German BB.

You seem to have misunderstood.

Everybody on both sides (except Queen Mary) uses a Dreyer-type system. That was the standard type of fire control system in WW1. It was, of course, only called a "Dreyer Table" in the RN, but everybody's gear was directly analogous. However, it's limits were known and by late WW1, Pollen-type systems were becoming seen as necessary, so that everybody switched to Pollen-type systems shortly after WW1. Pollen-type systems were thus standard by WW2.

Because everybody uses a Dreyer-type system, you don't have the situation you describe, of Dreyer-equipped ships being hosed by "Argo-equipped" ships. The differences in gunnery in Jutland are due to different training standards, different types of rangefinders, and ship design, etc. This is what makes Germans get on target faster and shoot slightly better than RN BBs, and why RN BCs (except Queen Mary) can't shoot very well. Neither can ships with funnels ahead of the foremast, or too few guns for adequate spotting.

I also recall that this, according to SES, was absolutely the way it was and therefore the way the game was designed.

Yup.

Are you saying now that this has been "adjusted"?

And yes... I am curious for good reason. If this has been fixed it may just make this game playable (IMH and Uninformed O of course).

I think rather that you're misinformed. The "problem" you mention doesn't exist and never has. All the various categories of ships mentioned above shoot very close to their historical averages over the long run, but for short periods can shoot rather worse or better, which is realistic because that also happened.

[jdkbph]

DELETE DELETE DELETE


OK I give up. It's your game... you win.

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by jdkbph

DELETE DELETE DELETE


OK I give up. It's your game... you win.

Now don't go away mad. We've been friends longer than I care to remember.

Seriously, just because we're somehow not communicating here doesn't mean you don't have a legit gripe. We've never said the game is perfect.

But it's obvious we're talking past each other, or not speaking the same language, or whatever. So what, specifically, in game terms, do you have a problem with? Until I even know what you're mad about, how the Hell do you expect me to answer your question?

[Trygvasson]

AT LAST a game that explores a chapter in the history of warfare with an absolutely massive amount of what-if's - and with the greatest possible broadside weight ever. These ships, these BEAUTIFUL, loved and cherished creatures of uncompromising destruction have been my keen interest since the days of GNB5.

I sincerely thank the Gods Above, aka the Programmers, for not making this into an 'action-packed FPS' or some other stupid marketing idea. Historically accurate to the point of including brittle AP shells and the like. One would always like more, of course, but that's what wishlists are for.

Phew! Now, down to the nitty gritty:
1. It seems the ships stop accumulating damage after they've reached 'sinking' status - I had half the Hochseeflotte blasting away point blank at a destroyer for 12 minutes, and it still stubbornly took all that time to sink. This is a major problem for me since (as well they should) my fleet keeps targeting the ship until she's well and truly gone.
2. More info! Range circles for primary/secondary guns, visual detection ranges, starshell ranges, torpedo ranges, acceleration rates(aren't they a bit quick?!), armor penetration/distance - and that's only what I can't stop thinking about!
3. I find myself micromanaging division speed a lot. I know a LOT has been accomplished regarding fleet maneuvers, and it's a real joy to behold as I create chaos from order - and then back to order - but why a division would want to keep sailing at 4kts after the ship that slowed them down has sunk, I don't know.

That's it for now - will provide some AAR's when I get some more experience. I'm still on Jan 5th, and already the Harwich Force is destroyed, and I've had an inconclusive meeting with Fisher's favourites...

[Xxzard]

The only way a sinking ship goes down faster is a magazine explosion, to my understanding. You can order the ships to cease fire, but all locally controlled guns will continue to fire.

The weather report shows visibility, and visual detection is I suppose automatic at that range. You can check the torpedo range by taking a look at the ship status report/menu thing and selecting one of the torpedo launchers. One problem I have noticed is that it seems when ships are near the edge of short/long range settings, the torpedos are launched on short setting and run out of 'gas' before reaching the target, when launching on long range would have assured at least reaching the target.

Getting a large fleet to behave in an orderly, no, even reasonable way can be difficult. It is something of a gripe with the game that the ships aren't somewhat more intuitive about that. No ships have any individual initiative except for avoiding torps and collisions (which is actually a good feature) although that itself can lead to big organizational problems.

All in all I think the control scheme is OK though, once you get to know it.

[Bullethead]

[

Originally Posted by Trygvasson

I sincerely thank the Gods Above

You're welcome.

1. It seems the ships stop accumulating damage after they've reached 'sinking' status

It sometimes seems that way, but it's really not true. You can reduce the sinking time for ships by continuing to fire at them. However, it usually takes something significant to make a real difference. A few more shellholes on the waterline more or less don't really change anything. What you need is either a lot more water coming in (like from a torpedo hole) or rather less going out (like by doing more propulsion damge).

That said, however, ships get lower in the water as they flood, which brings shell holes and ruined watertight integrity that were previously harmless down to where the water is. Thus, as ships settle, they often suddenly start sinking much faster as more holes reach water level.

2. More info! Range circles for primary/secondary guns, visual detection ranges, starshell ranges, torpedo ranges, acceleration rates(aren't they a bit quick?!), armor penetration/distance - and that's only what I can't stop thinking about!

The visibilty range, plus whether it's increasing or decreasing, is shown on the weather report button. However, that's a complicated subject (see my answer to XXzard infra).

The ship information screens give you the ranges, rates of fire, and a buch of other stuff for all the weapons. Just mouse over one of the colored dots and the text at the bottom of the screen changes from being about the ship as a whole to being about that weapon.

but why a division would want to keep sailing at 4kts after the ship that slowed them down has sunk, I don't know.

I agree, this is something we could improve. Send in a bug report on it, but change its message type to SUGGESTION.

Originally Posted by Xxzard

The weather report shows visibility, and visual detection is I suppose automatic at that range.

Actually, the visual range is very dynamic and variable. The range shown on the weather report is the maximum possible for the time of day and weather conditions, but without taking any specific situational modifiers into account.

As mentioned in another thread, there's a "smoke map" keeping track of lingering smoke long after we've had to remove its graphics in the interests of keeping your computer running. Thus, the LOS in different directions can be stopped by clots of smog at different ranges. The same thing applies to rain and fog, which are not uniform over the battlespace but occur in patches of varying density.

The length of the LOS usually is not the same in both directions between 2 given ships, even though the factors above are the same for both. This is because bigger ships are easier to see than small ships. Same for ships on fire, firing, using searchlights, or under a starshell. However, ships that are hugging a coastline at night are rather hard to see from seeward. Then, of course, there are the effects of the sun and moon, which are very directional.

On top of all this, even if everything above is the same for both ships, visibility isn't an all-or-nothing thing, where you can see out to a given range perfectly and then hit a wall. Instead, the chance of spotting something tapers off to zero at max possible range. This means that spotting a ship out near the max visibility range is a matter of chance, and 1 ship might do it before the other.

Anyway, all this is why sometimes you'll see a further ship before you see a closer ship. Also, sometimes you know a ship is there, but can't see it well enough to shoot at it. This is why you'll sometimes see a ship appear on the water but when you try to target it, it says it's not visible to any of your ships.

The presentation of all this is could perhaps be improved, say like how Combat Mission does FOW. Send in a suggestion on it.

[Trygvasson]

Thanks for your answers Bullet, appreciate it. On the subject of ship sinking time, I based my statement on in-game testing, so I must admit I'm surprised. I'll take your statement at face value - and do some more testing to convince the more stubborn part of my brain. The US Ship Pack battle is actually an ideal test scenario - one poor minelayer getting hammered by several super-dreds. I'm sure I'll find you're right, eventually.

Visibility: I guess it's an old-timer's habit to think in absolute visibility ranges as far as computer simulations are concerned. Dynamic spotting ranges and chances are much better, of course, as this is much closer to the real thing.

Gunnery: my problem is that I find it hard to visually judge the range on the battlespace. I'd really like a line in the sea telling me how far my ships can fire. But I guess that's OT in this thread. On topic: how much is accuracy affected by number of ships firing at it? I just fought a destroyer battle with about 20 DD's on each side, managing to cross the T of the enemy line and staying there as he tried to close for about 15 minutes. For the start of the battle I simply let my ships target the nearest ship, i.e. the lead ship of the enemy line, but seeing the spread of shot was so great I started spreading out the fire by micromanaging ship targets. What goes on under this part of the hood? And can you take the hood off, please ?