Real Submarine Technology & History Q&A

[Deamon]

Dave, I am wondering how big is your interest in the WWI portion of the submarine history ?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Mikeb213

Dave,
What do they do to prepair a ship for becoming a museum? I have seen at least one that looked like it was ready to sail, and had working engiens. The Pampinito in San Francisco is a very good example. Can they still sail under there own power? Is it possible to still dive one of the subs? How about the aircraft carriers? Do they remove the engiens so it can't move? Could they be put back into service?

Any equipment that is currently used by the Navy and is in good shape is removed for reuse and put back into the Navy supply system. All fluids are drained (hydraulic, lube oil, fuel oil, potable water, battery water, etc.). All other hazardous materiels are removed and disposed of. Off course, all ammunition, including torpedoes are sent ashore to a magazine. The propellers are removed from the shafts. The electrical system is scoured for salvageable metals, rendering it incapable of being used.

The biggest change is that the batteries are removed. This alone prevents the boat from ever being used again operationally. The batteries are probably the most maintenance intensive item on a submarine and their care and upkeep would be well beyond the limited resources of any museum.

It is true that several of the boats have working engines. The Fairbanks-Morse and GM-Winton diesels were hardy and robust engines and with a moderate amount of care will run forever. Parts are fairly plentiful and getting one operational would not be difficult or overly expensive. However, with the electrical system gutted and the screws removed, using these engines to provide propulsion is nothing but a dream.

For a private organization to put one of these boats into service and take it back to sea would be a monumentally daunting task, to put it mildly. The financial requirements alone would be light years beyond the capability of a privately funded museum. Even if you could fix all the gear and get everything running again, you have to remember that the Navy decommissioned these boats because they were no longer serviceable. They had been run hard during their service lives and were plain worn out. Thousands of compression/expansion cycles from diving and stresses put on the hull from decades of heavy seas leads to severe metal fatigue. Welded joints weaken, the hull dimples in between frames, and corrosion becomes a major concern.

I would also imagine that getting all the proper Coast Guard certifications for operation would be virtually impossible.

These boats make fine memorials and teaching tools for the public, but their days of going to sea are over, most unfortunately.

Making one of the carriers operational again would be an even more difficult task, if that is possible. Steam plants are very dangerous to operate once they are worn out. Making the hundreds of miles of steam piping and the thousands of valves operational again would be virtually impossible for a private organization.

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Dave, I am wondering how big is your interest in the WWI portion of the submarine history ?

I am interested in all eras of submarine history and technological development. Each era has its interesting stories and I enjoy watching the progress of the technology as you move through the years.

I would consider my area of expertise to be the USN submarines, with a focus on the WWII era. I have a good working knowledge of the other country's boats, but I usually defer to other experts once the discussion moves in this direction.

[snakeyez]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

Any equipment that is currently used by the Navy and is in good shape is removed for reuse and put back into the Navy supply system. All fluids are drained (hydraulic, lube oil, fuel oil, potable water, battery water, etc.). All other hazardous materiels are removed and disposed of. Off course, all ammunition, including torpedoes are sent ashore to a magazine. The propellers are removed from the shafts. The electrical system is scoured for salvageable metals, rendering it incapable of being used.

The biggest change is that the batteries are removed. This alone prevents the boat from ever being used again operationally. The batteries are probably the most maintenance intensive item on a submarine and their care and upkeep would be well beyond the limited resources of any museum.

It is true that several of the boats have working engines. The Fairbanks-Morse and GM-Winton diesels were hardy and robust engines and with a moderate amount of care will run forever. Parts are fairly plentiful and getting one operational would not be difficult or overly expensive. However, with the electrical system gutted and the screws removed, using these engines to provide propulsion is nothing but a dream.

For a private organization to put one of these boats into service and take it back to sea would be a monumentally daunting task, to put it mildly. The financial requirements alone would be light years beyond the capability of a privately funded museum. Even if you could fix all the gear and get everything running again, you have to remember that the Navy decommissioned these boats because they were no longer serviceable. They had been run hard during their service lives and were plain worn out. Thousands of compression/expansion cycles from diving and stresses put on the hull from decades of heavy seas leads to severe metal fatigue. Welded joints weaken, the hull dimples in between frames, and corrosion becomes a major concern.

I would also imagine that getting all the proper Coast Guard certifications for operation would be virtually impossible.

These boats make fine memorials and teaching tools for the public, but their days of going to sea are over, most unfortunately.

Making one of the carriers operational again would be an even more difficult task, if that is possible. Steam plants are very dangerous to operate once they are worn out. Making the hundreds of miles of steam piping and the thousands of valves operational again would be virtually impossible for a private organization.

Just had to say, nice answer there Dave. It seems that each museum sub has slightly different things done to them. I think even the ballast tank vents are welded over.

There various working parts in many of the museum subs, while enhancing in realism, are far from making any of them ready for sea again. Most of them aren't even safe for towing across the open sea. I keep hearing rumors of the Pampanito being a licensed operational surface craft, but haven't learned the whole truth as of yet.

[Mikeb213]

So in the case of the Pamp, would they be allowed to have an operational radar, sonar, radio from WWII? Even if the ship has to sit, are there rules against those being brought back into full operational condition?

[snakeyez]

Originally Posted by Mikeb213

So in the case of the Pamp, would they be allowed to have an operational radar, sonar, radio from WWII? Even if the ship has to sit, are there rules against those being brought back into full operational condition?

Mike,

I don't think the Navy cares as long as they don't have to supply anything, material or monetary. The Cobia has operational radar. There are licenses to get for operational equipment like radio.

Take a look at this year's checklist. This is what the Navy requires annually at checkup time.

http://www.submarinemuseums.org/pics...cklistFY09.pdf

[Sensekhmet]

Well, on the topic of making museum relics 'live' again... I've read once it's easier to get back a WW2 armored vehicle back to full operation if you're working with a wreck pulled out of a bog or a river bed than an ex-memorial or a museum item! The reason being exactly the same as in submarines, 99% of these memorials or museum objects are just stripped out empty shells, with some bad welding and sometimes being simply structurally unsound.

[Mikeb213]

I read that they were keeping the Missouri in a state where it could be activated again? Did they do that with with any of the other Battleships? Do they just not remove everything from the ship, and dock it and open it to the public in that case?

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

I am interested in all eras of submarine history and technological development. Each era has its interesting stories and I enjoy watching the progress of the technology as you move through the years.

I would consider my area of expertise to be the USN submarines, with a focus on the WWII era. I have a good working knowledge of the other country's boats, but I usually defer to other experts once the discussion moves in this direction.

Have you by any chance checked out my articles on my website ?

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/main.htm

[Kloef]

Pampanito is still partly operational,they take her out for a surface run every 5-7 years according to the site..submerging is out of the question i guess.

Whats very interesting is that she carries the only operational TDC Mark3 in existence,is has been overhauled by a specialist a while ago.

The coding typewriter has been secret untill 1995,and they have one on board in working order,very exceptional since even the museums dont have one..

About 90% of her original missing equipment has been returned and she gets alot of attention,but bringing her back in full operational status is an engineer's nightmare..age really gets to these boats,and she was cannibalized to keep other fleet boats in service for more then 10 years,that really gutted her out bigtime.

i guess it would be cheaper to reverse engineer her and build a new one!

then again you guys keep your history alive,here all boats are sold abroad or stripped and sold as scrap,even the O21 was sold for about 60.000 dollars to a scrapdealer in the 60's..she had great historical value.

We have some boats in the Navy museum in Den Helder,an old Dolfijn class diesel sub that has been put on shore so you can get a real good look at everything,and an old Russian Whiskey class sub in the old part of the harbour but that's it...

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Deamon

Have you by any chance checked out my articles on my website ?

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/heinrich/main.htm

Deamon,

Great stuff. Keep up the good work. I have always had a fascination with Otto Weddigen's U-9. I consider his sinking of the three British cruisers to be a very important event in submarine history.

[Deamon]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

Deamon,

Great stuff. Keep up the good work. I have always had a fascination with Otto Weddigen's U-9. I consider his sinking of the three British cruisers to be a very important event in submarine history.

Otto Weddingen, is quite an inspiration. He was the best commander at this time, no doubt. He was also the torpedo referee of the sub fleet. He also managed to keep his crew all the time, which is very rare. He had completely mastered his boat and crew and he was the best damn shooter of the entire german sub fleet( hence he was the torpedo referee ).

Although his performence on the 3 british cruisers was considered a master piece, it is not the first time that he pulled out such stunts. I know of one case during fleet maneuvers in peace time, where he for example shot a 4 torpedo fan ( 2 bow, 2 stern shots ) and scored 3 hits on a battle group.

This is a considerable performence of the entire crew, when you consider the old tech of this early sub design and that the german sub fleet was just a few years old. He was the star of the german submarine fleet.

It is very fortunate for the brits that he died so early into the war. He seemed to had a special luck and skill in comming across british capital ships. I am sure if he would have remained alife he alone would have been a menace for the britsh fleet.

Also it is worth to mention that he died on a new boat(U29). That also came with a new green crew, then he came across 2 other battle goups(of course) and something happened that made the boat broach through the surface during the attack before it got rammed.

A new boat with a new green crew and a formidable tactical challenge was certainly not a fortune combination.



A very sympathetic fellow and a real gentleman.

BTW: He also received his basic training on the U 1, the boat that stands in the focus of the simulator I work on.

http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/he...t_the_pier.png

[Bubblehead Nuke]

Originally Posted by Mikeb213

I read that they were keeping the Missouri in a state where it could be activated again? Did they do that with with any of the other Battleships? Do they just not remove everything from the ship, and dock it and open it to the public in that case?

Hello.. I just wandered in from the Dangerous Waters Forum and thought I could share some insight.

When the USN decides to put a ship in long term layup or mothballs, there are some specific things that have to be performed to preserve critical gear. The procedures are extensive and VERY comprehensive.

Obviously the things of main concern are propulsion,damage control, and weapon systems.

For the propulsion train, the screws are removed and the anodes are checked yearly. In the engineroom, all fluids are removed and protective chemicals are applied to prevent corrosion. The spaces are sealed and humidity controls are implemented to prevent a corrorsion friendly enviroment.

For the weapons system, external items are removed if possible to protect them. Every effort is made to protect and preseve the systems so that they can be re-activated. If there are corrosive, explosive, or other potentially dangerous items they are removed and re-located to a protected space.

Damage control wise, you have to make sure that the interior communications system is preseved, the door seals on watertight doors have to be maintained. Some pumps are left available to dewater compartments, others are removed and preservative chemicals applied.

Of course this is a small list of what it done. I have read the navshiptech manuals regarding the procedures and they are mindboggling.

A ship can be placed as a museum and still be able to be re-activated. Most museum ships like to show you 'how they lived'. They do no get into the bowels were the parts that need to be protected are. Sure, you might see a gun turrent, but insurance will prevent you from getting into the engineroom or other large spaces that house the critical gear needed to drive and fight the ship.

[DaveyJ576]

On 14 November 1944, the USS Halibut (SS-232) was on patrol in the Bashi Straight north of Luzon. Around noon that day, her crew picked up an escorted four ship convoy headed northbound. Her skipper, I.J. "Pete" Galantin turned her towards the convoy and engaged. The tactical situation forced a long range torpedo shot and after firing she turned away and submerged. Shortly thereafter a strange buzzing noise (later determined to be Japanese ASW aircraft) was heard followed by five close and devastating depth charge explosions. The boat was badly damaged and Galantin took her to 325 feet seeking safety. Another close, heavy explosion wracked the conning tower and this was followed by two more series of explosions that devastated the control room, the forward battery, and the forward torpedo room. The boat was forced down to 420 feet as the crew fought desperately to save her. At this point the attacks mysteriously ceased and after a point the exhausted crew was able to bring the boat limping to the surface once night fell. The enemy had departed and the Halibut immediately headed to the advance base at Saipan, although without a radio, depth gauges, gyro compasses and suffering from air and water leaks throughout the boat. Temporarily patched up at Saipan, she headed back to Pearl Harbor were it was determined she was beyond economical repair. She returned to the states and was decommissioned at Portsmouth Naval Shipyard on 18 July 1945, never having made another war patrol.

The USS Lancetfish (SS-296) was a Balao class submarine built by Cramp Shipbuilding in Philadelphia. Cramp encountered severe labor and production problems which forced the Navy to tow her to the Boston Navy Yard for completion. After a concerted effort by the workers at BNY, she was commissioned on 12 February 1945, but with many unfinished items still outstanding. On 15 March two yard workmen, arguing about the status of one of the aft torpedo tubes opened it to prove it was dry. Unfortunately, the safety interlocks had been over-ridden and the outer door was open as well. The boat quickly flooded and sank alongside the pier. Raised eight days later from the mud, she was dried out but never repaired. She was decommissioned 24 March 1945, her crew was reassigned, and the boat was sent to the Atlantic Reserve Fleet. She clung to life until 1959 when the Navy finally sold her for scrap. The Lancetfish was never repaired and never went to sea under her own power. She holds the record for the shortest commissioned service of any USN submarine.

Most people may not consider this next one to be a war loss, but the story of the USS O-9 (SS-70) deserves mention. Many of the O-class (that is the letter O, not zero) submarines, built during WWI, had been decommissioned and laid up in reserve as a cost saving measure in the 1930's. Still considered useful, the Navy pulled some of them out of mothballs and recommissioned them as feverish preparations were made to get ready for the war that many believed was coming. The O-9 had laid in reserve for almost 10 years, but despite her poor overall condition was overhauled and recommissioned on 14 April 1941. She was immediately assigned to train crews for the new fleet boats now rolling off the ways. On the morning of 20 June 1941 she got underway from New London for the operating areas off the Isle of Shoals near Portsmouth, New Hampshire. At 0837 she submerged for a dive to test depth and was not heard from again. Two hours later an intensive search was begun, but it was not until evening that debris was finally discovered. The water was 450 feet deep and the O-9 had a nominal test depth of 200 feet. Not much hope held out, but divers were sent down only to discover her shattered remains. The bow was intact but flooded, the rest of the hull aft of the conning tower fairwater had imploded. The crew was dead. The extreme depth proved too hazardous for diving and all rescue and salvage operations ceased on 22 June. Memorial services were conducted and the area designated an official Naval burial ground. In 1997 a survey was made of the site and the following sonar image was recorded:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/08/0807006.jpg

Rest in peace, shipmates.

[DaveyJ576]

The USN submarine skippers of WWII were nothing if not colorful. Many had a great sense of humor and being the inveterate jokesters that they tended to be, a common passtime was labling their buddies with goofy nicknames. Some were descriptive in nature, and some were an expedient to get around long or unpronouncable names. "Red", "Pete", and "Tex" seemed to have been the most popular, each having been used no less than four times each. The following is not a comprehensive list, but contains some of the more entertaining or colorful monikers:

Albert Collins Burrows – “Acey”
James Alvin Adkins – “Caddy”
Raymond Henry Bass – “Benny”
Roy Stanley Benson – “Ensign”
John Herbert Brown – “Babe”
James Harry Campbell – “Soupy”
Wreford Goss Chapple – “Moon”
Bernard Ambrose Clarey – “Chick”
James Wiggins Coe – “Red”
Charles Maynard Cooke – “Savvy”
George Clifford Crawford – “Turkey Neck”
Glynn Robert Donaho – “Donc”
Robert Edson Dornin – “Dusty”
Richard Marvin Farrell – “Dixie”
William Edward Ferrall – “Pete”
Eugene Bennett Fluckey – “Lucky”
Elton Watters Grenfell – “Joe”
William Philip Gruner, Jr. – “Bud”
Frederick Joseph Harlfinger II – “Fritz”
Martin Perry Hottel – “Spike”
Thomas Burton Klakring – “Burt”
Charles Andrews Lockwood, Jr. – “Uncle Charlie”
Vernon Long Lowrance – “Rebel”
Frank Curtis Lynch, Jr. – “Tiny”
Richard Barr Lynch – “Ozzie”
John Sidney McCain, Jr. – “Junior”
Louis Darby McGregor – “Sandy”
Elliott Eugene Marshall – “Steam”
Leonard Sparks Mewhinney – “Tex”
William John Millican – “Moke”
Charles Bowers Momsen – “Swede”
John Raymond Moore – “Dinty”
Dudley Walker Morton – “Mush”
Stuart Shadrick Murray – “Sunshine”
Lawson Peterson Ramage – “Red”
John Paul Roach – “Beetle”
Augustus Robert St. Angelo – “The Saint”
William Bernard Sieglaff – “Barney”
Charles Wilkes Styer – “Gin”
Norvell Gardiner Ward – “Bub”
Frederick Burdette Warder – “Fearless Freddie”
William Leslie Wright – “Bull”
John Herbert Brown – “Babe”
Ignatius Joseph Galantin – “Pete”
Herman Arnold Pieczentkowski – “Pi”
Willis Ashford Lent – “Pilly”
Charles Warren Wilkins – “Weary”


Even though I was just a ordinary enlisted Quartermaster, a Japanese bar girl in Sasebo tagged me with my own nom de plume, for which I became famous throughout the Western Pacific as an international nice guy:

David Lee Johnston - "Skinny Dave"

BTW: This is not descriptive of my current physical state!!