The failure of DW

[Shearwater]

Okay, maybe this thread offers me the opportunity for a general rant
A few days ago, I was about to give up playing DW and stick to SC - maybe I still will. Anyway, I find it comforting that other people (lots of other people) feel the same.


The major issues I have with DW are:
1) The general scope of the sim. Hard to describe it, but I think you know what I mean. A weird mixture of commanding a platform but having to do everything yourself. (Though that's the case with 688 and SC as well). That could be fine in itself if it weren't for the incompetent autocrew. Instead of thinking how to improve the game, every new SCS product just offered more of the same.
Something which would really have helped the sim would have more tools on the Nav screen, perhaps à la SHIII. Just inserting dots, manual solutions and circles is not that much. What about baffles? Incoming torpedoes? Water depths that don't require my cursor to move around the map? No, I have to remember all of those things just because. An A4 sheet of paper offers more situational awareness than the simulated map of a 2 billion $ submarine.

2) Lack of dynamic campaign. I know, I know, it was a deliberate decision on the part of SCS to create a mission-based campaign in order to avoid the simple "go hunt" feeling (i.e. just a series of randomly generated missions with little immersive effect), but I think it still sucks. And it sucks because I know what to expect, even if the details change. Apart from that, many of the missions I find simply to be boring, and the scenario corny.

3) Bugs. BUGS. Not even the ones concerning sensors, platform behavior and the like. It took me hours or even days of tweaking before I got rid of the infamous "sound bug" (stuttering music / sound effects), and if I had not replaced the original water textures of DW with those of SC, the sim would look quite weird (my notebook doesn't have a graphics card that supports the shader effects of DW). Not much of an issue, but: Why screw something up that has worked in the previous game?
And I needn't mention the real bugs that were mentioned in countless threads.
I think I can understand Nexus7 here. The modding community has done a great job, but I often think that this is piecemeal and there is something that they might have overlooked. Let alone the fact that it ought to be the job of the company who made the product to iron out these flaws in the first place. It's just that if a product ships out with that many flaws, I tend to become suspicious, even if they are gotten rid of eventually.

Don't get me wrong. I really like DW, or at least I try to. But sometimes, I wonder if it's worth the effort. Maybe if I would play some multiplayer, I could get more fun out of the game

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Shearwater

Okay, maybe this thread offers me the opportunity for a general rant
A few days ago, I was about to give up playing DW and stick to SC - maybe I still will. Anyway, I find it comforting that other people (lots of other people) feel the same.


The major issues I have with DW are:
1) The general scope of the sim. Hard to describe it, but I think you know what I mean. A weird mixture of commanding a platform but having to do everything yourself. (Though that's the case with 688 and SC as well). That could be fine in itself if it weren't for the incompetent autocrew. Instead of thinking how to improve the game, every new SCS product just offered more of the same.
Something which would really have helped the sim would have more tools on the Nav screen, perhaps à la SHIII. Just inserting dots, manual solutions and circles is not that much. What about baffles? Incoming torpedoes? Water depths that don't require my cursor to move around the map? No, I have to remember all of those things just because. An A4 sheet of paper offers more situational awareness than the simulated map of a 2 billion $ submarine.

Sub Command suffers the exact same problems.

2) Lack of dynamic campaign. I know, I know, it was a deliberate decision on the part of SCS to create a mission-based campaign in order to avoid the simple "go hunt" feeling (i.e. just a series of randomly generated missions with little immersive effect), but I think it still sucks. And it sucks because I know what to expect, even if the details change. Apart from that, many of the missions I find simply to be boring, and the scenario corny.

Sub Command doesn't have a dynamic campaign.

3) Bugs. BUGS. Not even the ones concerning sensors, platform behavior and the like. It took me hours or even days of tweaking before I got rid of the infamous "sound bug" (stuttering music / sound effects), and if I had not replaced the original water textures of DW with those of SC, the sim would look quite weird (my notebook doesn't have a graphics card that supports the shader effects of DW). Not much of an issue, but: Why screw something up that has worked in the previous game?
And I needn't mention the real bugs that were mentioned in countless threads.
I think I can understand Nexus7 here. The modding community has done a great job, but I often think that this is piecemeal and there is something that they might have overlooked. Let alone the fact that it ought to be the job of the company who made the product to iron out these flaws in the first place. It's just that if a product ships out with that many flaws, I tend to become suspicious, even if they are gotten rid of eventually.

Don't get me wrong. I really like DW, or at least I try to. But sometimes, I wonder if it's worth the effort. Maybe if I would play some multiplayer, I could get more fun out of the game

Sub Command was full of bugs, and the game only improved with surprise surprise a freaking mod, SCX.
I know no one who would go back playing default 1.08 Sub Command.

Most people playing DW have no freaking idea of what the latest mods are and just how much of a quantum leap they represent.
RA the mod that I'm betatesting is ground breaking. You can get a glimpse downooading an old beta version on subguru's website, but the latest version is even better.

[Castout]

Imo if DW would use 3D graphics like that of Silent Hunter III it would sell hot.

Right now DW only appeals to those who have strong interest in the world of modern naval sim.

However the success of SH3 is roof itself that the market CAN appreciate and WILL appreciate a well made game.
A good products nowadays CREATE their market instead of hoping to fulfill the market needs. SET TRENDS instead of following them.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by goldorak

I know no one who would go back playing default 1.08 Sub Command.

Just because you don't know me

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Castout

Imo if DW would use 3D graphics like that of Silent Hunter III it would sell hot.

A submarine sight is it's sensors, it's there that you see

Originally Posted by Castout

A good products nowadays CREATE their market instead of hoping to fulfill the market needs. SET TRENDS instead of following them.

Good point !

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

Just because you don't know me

We have an italian saying : "una rondine non fa primavera". I don't know how to translate it in english, but just because you're only one that prefers SC 1.08 over DW with or without mods doesn't mean that most players will agree with you.
Fact is most prefer DW over SC, since DW can do all that SC does and even more. The only difference is the abscense of a certain doctrine command, but in the great scheme of things is irrelevant as far as mission design goes.

[Shearwater]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Sub Command suffers the exact same problems.

Sub Command doesn't have a dynamic campaign.

Sub Command was full of bugs, and the game only improved with surprise surprise a freaking mod, SCX.
I know no one who would go back playing default 1.08 Sub Command.

.

I don't object. As for the campaign system: I didn't like it in SC either. But: If SC already shipped out with a whole lot of bugs until 1.08, why screw up the whole thing all over again, only this time much worse??

As for the mods: I generally think that mods should be the icing on the cake. Not make a stale cake taste good.
In danger of repeating myself: It's good, it's wonderful that so many people are putting that much effort into games they like. But it's also a symptom of what's wrong in the gaming industry. Those people do for free what others ought to have done for money.

[Neptunus Rex]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

By the way, how much dead is it ? 98% ?

Is that dead, a little dead, or mostly dead?

My opinion is that even though most subsimers are passionate about the genre, from the cost point of view, the ROI is not high enough to sustain the effort. Jamie Carlson and Kim Castro of Sonalysts were very heavily involved here for quite some time but either moved on or were reassigned.

[Nexus7]

Originally Posted by Neptunus Rex

from the cost point of view, the ROI is not high enough to sustain the effort.

ROI ? reason of Involvement ??

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Nexus7

ROI ? reason of Involvement ??

ROI : Return on Investment.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by goldorak

You have got to be kidding Nexus7. Default DW even with patch 1.04 is fundamentally broken, if it were not for the pioneering work of lwami and then the guys of AT and RA this game would be 100% dead.
No one would be playing it.

While I agree that some of the modding has been seriously great enhancements, please speak for yourself when saying "nobody would be playing it". I have been enjoying this game from the day of release. Despite the early problems and all. I also wish for more fixes, and wasn't happy that the FFG helo wasn't able to dip the dipping sonar. But I made due. Glad the mod fixed that.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

While I agree that some of the modding has been seriously great enhancements, please speak for yourself when saying "nobody would be playing it". I have been enjoying this game from the day of release. Despite the early problems and all. I also wish for more fixes, and wasn't happy that the FFG helo wasn't able to dip the dipping sonar. But I made due. Glad the mod fixed that.

Well I guess if one is interested only in subs, he would have no problem playing DW 1.04 even with all its bugs and shortcoming that affected at 99% surface and air units. I play all the units, and the game has been bugging me since release.
I also made due, in fact I've been playing the game since the battlefront release. That doesn't mean I haven't aspired for something better in all these years. Lwami fixed some things, and AT and RA got even further.
Now having tried all the mods I WOULD NEVER EVER GO BACK TO DW 1.04.
Do you know that in RA, you can actually program the frigate's helo to perform different search patterns ? Using not only a combination of active/passive dipping sonar but also mad/sad sensors ?
Would you be willing to renounce this advance in helo control this and go back to broken 1.04 ? Please Sea Demon that would be a joke.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Well I guess if one is interested only in subs, he would have no problem playing DW 1.04 even with all its bugs and shortcoming that affected at 99% surface and air units. I play all the units, and the game has been bugging me since release.
I also made due, in fact I've been playing the game since the battlefront release. That doesn't mean I haven't aspired for something better in all these years. Lwami fixed some things, and AT and RA got even further.

OK. Well put. I see your point, and I agree with you in many ways. I was just objecting to your broad statement that "nobody would be playing it". I have also always aspired for better, including more content in the way of new playables.

Would you be willing to renounce this advance in helo control this and go back to broken 1.04 ? Please Sea Demon that would be a joke.

I have not seen this feature. But the ability does seem very compelling. I'm reserving judgement for now.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

OK. Well put. I see your point, and I agree with you in many ways. I was just objecting to your broad statement that "nobody would be playing it". I have also always aspired for better, including more content in the way of new playables.

Point taken. I should have been more specific.

I have not seen this feature. But the ability does seem very compelling. I'm reserving judgement for now.

Well then, you're in for a big surprise.

[Hawk66]

I do not think that DW was a failure concerning the program/code itself.

The major problem was that the sim didn't sell well enough.
Therefore, the support was limited.

I think Sonalysts should have invested more in a marketing campaing to raise the awareness. But of course that's easy saying (budget).

Is there a (profitable) market for such a game in today's console world? Difficult to say...perhaps but then you need a broader scope (option for limitied realism, fancy graphics, more atmosphere).

What I would like to know is if the DW engine was enhanced for the government. Then I do not understand why it is not possible to create an updated version for the commerical market (similar like Harpoon/Steel Beats). Does anybody know the reason?