How about that reckless cowboy president !

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

No problem really. In fact Im glad to see the action.

Just that if Bush had done this he would of been lambasted.

I don't think so, at least not here in Germany. The Americans were always criticised for causing too much "collateral damage" not for fighting the Taliban. If Bush (or his Generals) had switched from aerial/artillery attacks to this sort of engagement maybe we wouldn't have such a strong Taliban force there and much more respect in the civilian population.

Just my 2C

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I don't think so, at least not here in Germany. The Americans were always criticised for causing too much "collateral damage" not for fighting the Taliban. If Bush (or his Generals) had switched from aerial/artillery attacks to this sort of engagement maybe we wouldn't have such a strong Taliban force there and much more respect in the civilian population.

Just my 2C

This.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by Schroeder

I don't think so, at least not here in Germany. The Americans were always criticised for causing too much "collateral damage" not for fighting the Taliban. If Bush (or his Generals) had switched from aerial/artillery attacks to this sort of engagement maybe we wouldn't have such a strong Taliban force there and much more respect in the civilian population.

Just my 2C

That is BS, sorry. It's not a matter of "let's just bombard them from the air / with arty" vs. "let's go in and manhandle them". Since WWII this is a fluid affair. Or do you think that now they went in without having air / artillery on demand?

And what do you mean "the Americans [were not] criticised" for fighting the Taliban? Why is it then that even our own Bundeswehr mission is highly unpopular among people? Surely not because they lack a proper mandate and / or equipment, which would be true. It's because people want them to pull out. Kinda like "Was suchen wir am Hindukusch?"

Also, the old meme of "if only the Americans weren't so gung-ho, they would have won the hearts and minds by now" is typical and getting really old. It was this kind of Disney Land approach that let to some of the first German casualties in Afghanistan. Remember when former Minister of Defense Struck said our soldiers won't drive around in APCs because we are an "Army of peace" and don't want to seem "threatening" to the folks over there [like the evil Americans, which he didn't say, but everyone understood]? Probably not, because that (his failure) was underreported. Seven German soldiers got killed when their BUS was hit by an RPG fired by some Jihadi ******* when they were at the end of their tour and on the way back to the airport. So it only cost the lives of 7 German soldiers for Mr. Struck to re-assess his ******* fantasies. And now, after 3 soldiers got killed recently after being ambushed during patrol, our current Minister of Defense Jung said he was "outraged" and that "We will do everything to clarify the background of this". Well, maybe Mr. Jung, the background of this is called WAR, or are you NOT SO SURE ABOUT THAT, SINCE YOUR ELECTORATE WILL NOT LIKE THAT WORD?? Then INDEED, get our troops out so they don't constantly get killed for nothing.

Look, if you send troops into a foreign country to kill an enemy force, you cannot be lukewarm about it. The Afghan people never liked a foreign force on their soil, no matter if they drive around in busses or APCs, no matter if they work on water supply or shoot bullets. And some of the reasons for this is decades long propaganda, being stuck in Medieval times, lack of education or surpression of same, and last but not least simple fear for the Taliban who are still using fear tactics on the normal people, threaten them and will come back to take out revenge on any "traitor" once the foreign force pulls out, having accomplished nothing because THEIR LEADERS WERE TOO FAR OUT IN FANTASY LAND AND COULDN'T MAKE UP THEIR MIND.

Isn't it wonderful how the two parties in USA are always united when it comes to bloodshed.

"Wag the dog", I hear you say? Who cares when there is state sponsored violence!

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by heartc

That is BS, sorry. It's not a matter of "let's just bombard them from the air / with arty" vs. "let's go in and manhandle them". Since WWII this is a fluid affair. Or do you think that now they went in without having air / artillery on demand?

I haven't heard anything about artillery yet. They will surely have some around but so far they haven't used it.

And what do you mean "the Americans [were not] criticised" for fighting the Taliban? Why is it then that even our own Bundeswehr mission is highly unpopular among people? Surely not because they lack a proper mandate and / or equipment, which would be true. It's because people want them to pull out. Kinda like "Was suchen wir am Hindukusch?"

In the beginning I can't remember a lot of people being against it. Yes, some are always against it but in the very beginning there was a majority here for that mission. It started to crumble with more and more "collateral damage" being reported. That is when the "Was suchen wir am Hindukusch?" wave started flowing (the dead German soldiers contributed to that of course). So I still think my point is valid.

Also, the old meme of "if only the Americans weren't so gung-ho, they would have won the hearts and minds by now"

If they had done this sort of approach maybe that would have been true. Do you know it? You will definitely fail if you have too much "collateral damage". As for the rest of your post, I don't know were you read that I support this Mickey Mouse position of Struck.
Again I'm just against the blind bombardment of an area. That has to lead to be highly disliked. I welcome the current offensive. I think it should have been done like that from the very beginning.