DG1.5 - the opening attack

[alexsmith]

Originally Posted by Bullethead

There is one. One of the buttons along the right edge of the screen is the weather report. This gives the wind speed and direction, the wave height, etc.

Yeah. I know I mean - an icon DISPLAING weather - like in a weather reports, you know - "light rain", "heavy rain", "fog", "high waves", "low visibility" - indicating the overall weather conditions affecting the battle.

This is quite useful in DG, too. It's a question of geometry. Suppose your DD is going parallel to an enemy line. The best gun target is the one on the broadside directly across from the DD. However, the best torpedo target is the ship next astern of the gun target, due to torpedoes having to lead the target a lot due to their slow speed.

You mean - on ths same course? To fire at the pre-last ship to hit the last? It's a bit tricky, isn't it? More chance to miss at all

The reason that your ship changes her torpedo target is because you gave it a target that was impossible to hit, and which will never apparently become possible to hit. The ship knows, however, that you want it to launch torpedoes and that it probably won't live much longer, so it picks a target it CAN hit, viewing torpedoes as a "use them or lose them" thing.

This means computer knows something I don't know - about when and where that ship will sink? Great! So instead of executing exact order computer decides to do what itself think is better! This explains while sometimes ships leave their line and start drawing circles or begin "avoid collision" manoeuvre when no visible collision expected - computer just know what I don't! It would better avoid enemy gunshells

The predicted impact point...

So, what happens if I decide to change course? What if I predict another point of impact? What if I plan an attack - which my soldiers don't perform cause they have they own plans?

What you've just described works perfect for automatic torpeding! But in "manual mode" - which is quite suitable for DDs - it works against player plans! Because DDs often have not more than one chance to fire - and if computer begins to switch targets or not to launch torpedoes according to "predicted circumstances" - I don't even know what I'm doing here

The best way to use torpedoes, therefore, is to approach the target on a parallel but opposite course.

I usually do it exactly the same. Althouth sometimes I try to attack damaged slow-moving target from back - I mean - on a parallel course of couse. I think it's also suitable position - but AI thinks opposite

What I like to do is have my DDs move in line astern more or less perpendicular to the target's course, then turn simultaneously for a head-on approach. This puts some of the flotilla on both sides of the target, leaving it no place to run when it tries to dodge the torpedoes .

Yeah, it would be great also if DDs could be parachuted from the high - right to both sides of target

You just need to work on the timing of giving the launch order. Only give it as the DDs are approaching the point you want to launch from, so that by the times the tubes swing onto the target, you're in the right place. It's not that hard to do.

But what about training the target? When I give order to target - DDs just start to PREPARE their torpedoes only! And to the time they become ready either target is gone or DD itself is already destroyed. That's what I'm talking about - set target before the launch to aim - and launch torpedoes only when the best moment achived! This is sometimes tricky with current controls...

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

You mean - on ths same course? To fire at the pre-last ship to hit the last? It's a bit tricky, isn't it? More chance to miss at all

Whether you're on a the same or the opposite course, if the enemy is in order Ship A then Ship B and you're alongside Ship A, you should fire your torps at Ship B. However, not all your guns may bear on Ship B, but all will bear on Ship A.

This means computer knows something I don't know - about when and where that ship will sink? Great! So instead of executing exact order computer decides to do what itself think is better!

The ship calculates a PREDICTED impact point, which is based on both your ship and the target continuing on the same courses and speeds, and the torpedoes running straight. Torpedoes don't always run straight, and 1 or both ships may turn (the target almost always will at least try to dodge). Thus, you don't always hit.

It's pretty easy to figure where the predicted impact point is. Just draw an imaginary line straight ahead from the target and another out from your ship to cross the 1st line. Then mentally adjust the crossing point forward and backwards along the target's line until the line from your ship to the crossing point is about twice as long as from the target to the crossing point. This isn't exactly right, but it's close enough to work reliably.

So, what happens if I decide to change course? What if I predict another point of impact? What if I plan an attack - which my soldiers don't perform cause they have they own plans?

If you change course, it often doesn't change the predicted impact point very much, because your tubes have an arc of fire. Target course changes, however, always have a big effect on the predicted impact point.

If you follow the procedure above, visualizing the lines from the target and your ship to where they cross, you shouldn't have much problem getting into a good launch position. It's actually way easier in DG than in Jutland, because torpedo range is so short everything fits on your screen easily.

And your ship DOESN'T do something it thinks is better than what you want it to do. It's trying to carry out your orders to fire torpedoes. If you tell it to launch at a specific target it tries hard to do so, but if that's impossible, it may then try to launch at something else.

IOW, if your ship changes to a different target than the one you gave it, it's because you gave it an impossible order. And that's your fault for putting your ship in the wrong place to attack the desired target. To avoid this problem, visualize the launch parameters better.

But what about training the target? When I give order to target - DDs just start to PREPARE their torpedoes only! And to the time they become ready either target is gone or DD itself is already destroyed. That's what I'm talking about - set target before the launch to aim - and launch torpedoes only when the best moment achived! This is sometimes tricky with current controls...

Yeah, that's a suggestion I've made myself but it hasn't been a high priority because, with practice, you can still get good results without it. However, turning in a suggestion might help sway opinions.

[alexsmith]

Originally Posted by Bullethead

Whether you're on a the same or the opposite course, if the enemy is in order Ship A then Ship B and you're alongside Ship A, you should fire your torps at Ship B. However, not all your guns may bear on Ship B, but all will bear on Ship A.

I will surely attempt that advice, thank you! But... I usually not attack ships in line - very rare...

The ship calculates a PREDICTED impact point, which is based on both your ship and the target continuing on the same courses and speeds, and the torpedoes running straight. Torpedoes don't always run straight, and 1 or both ships may turn (the target almost always will at least try to dodge). Thus, you don't always hit.

I understand why I miss - I just cant' understand why my DDs fire at far target instead to fire at closest - as I just told them

It's pretty easy to figure where the predicted impact point is. Just draw an imaginary line straight ahead from the target and another out from your ship to cross the 1st line. Then mentally adjust the crossing point forward and backwards along the target's line until the line from your ship to the crossing point is about twice as long as from the target to the crossing point. This isn't exactly right, but it's close enough to work reliably.

I will probably need a calculator and apply a ruler at my monitor at least
What you say is to complex for me As I suppose there is not a great task to compute a targeting point (a point at which torpedos should be targeted):



where:
d1 - distance between DD and target
d2 - distance which target should pass for the time before impact
s1 - speed of target
s2 - speed of torpedo
(if DD is not on traverse of target it's a bit different but also not too complex)

As you can see for example - if d1=300m and target speed is about 10 knots - the distance from DD to target point should be ( d2^2+d1^2 ) ^ 0.5 ~ 350m

Maybe I'm not a mathematician - but I see no difficulties to fire in that situation and torpedo to hit - althouth target won't change it's course which is not quite important in such situation... I don't understand what is so impossible here for DD to carry out my order

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

I will surely attempt that advice, thank you! But... I usually not attack ships in line - very rare...

Lines are the best targets--if you don't hit the one you aim at, you might hit another. And even if you miss completely, you'll still screw the whole formation up. But that's in Jutland; in the RJW sending DDs after a line of ships in presumably good condition is suicide.

What you say is to complex for me

It's a lot simpler than that ugly formula you posted . I was just describing how to estimate the parameters by eye, no math required.

:


Maybe I'm not a mathematician - but I see no difficulties to fire in that situation and torpedo to hit

Well, as you've drawn the picture, most DDs in both games would be unable to launch. This is because the impact point is so far forward of the DDs' beam, it's out of the arc of broadside tubes. I think only a WW1 German DD could launch in this situation, and only with 1 bow tube. The rest of its tubes, and all those of other DDs, would be unable to fire.

This is because the impact point is outside of their tubes' firing arcs. Almost all DDs' tubes have 90^ arcs on each side of the ship, centered on their beams. IOW, the impact point can be no more than 45^ ahead of or abaft their beams. Thus, to get the DD to lauch torpedoes, you should turn the DD to port, so that the impact point is within the arcs of its broadside tubes.

[alexsmith]

Originally Posted by Bullethead

Lines are the best targets-But that's in Jutland; in the RJW sending DDs after a line of ships in presumably good condition is suicide.

Right. That's exactly why I almost never attack whole line

Well, as you've drawn the picture, most DDs in both games would be unable to launch. This is because the impact point is outside of their tubes' firing arcs.

Ok. Was wrong. What about now?



Well... Don't you think it's a little bit tricky to target DD at the imaginary point which is not quite easy to locate? Hm. But maybe this requires a little guide to novices... I think it would be great if you could include such example (without "ugly formula" of course in the game manual, wouldn't it?

By the way! About the manual. I suggest the manual for 1.5 is not quite up to date When should we expect an updated version?

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

Ok. Was wrong. What about now?

It's better to attack head-on instead of overtaking from astern. Not only is the geometry better, but you're less exposed to fire.

Well... Don't you think it's a little bit tricky to target DD at the imaginary point which is not quite easy to locate?

Nope, it's just similar triangles. I can visualize a triangle lying over the water and can expand it or contract it mentally at will. It's not that hard. In real life, the whole thing was a question of similar triangles. You might want to watch Tone's movies about it, found here: http://www.dreadnoughtproject.org/sim/

You can also practice. Set up a scenario with the edtior with some target ships and DDs approaching from both sides. Play it on both sides and never give any orders to the targets so they don't shoot back. Use this to practice making approaches to launch positions.

[alexsmith]

But what about question concerning manual update? And including a short example of what we were discussed here in there?