DG1.5 - the opening attack

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

Let me please disagree with you The more light cruisers Japan could sink during the first surprise attack - the more easily they can win!

Quite true. However, sometimes easy isn't as fun as challenging, it takes a long time for PA to fall even with total command of the seas, and I find DDs quite useful for many tasks. For instance, they're among the few IJN units that can lay mines. Besides, you never know when a big fleet action is going to go haywire on you, and then you need your DDs to stave off pursuit. 2PacRon is coming, regardless of what happens to PA. So, when I play the IJN, given the choice, I'll conserve my DDs and have to sweat out hunting down the Russian cruisers while waiting for PA to fall.

[alexsmith]

Originally Posted by Bullethead

I'll conserve my DDs and have to sweat out hunting down the Russian cruisers while waiting for PA to fall.

You hunt down cruisers with DDs??? You ARE able to pull DD against a full functional cruiser not to be killed? And your DDs always throw torpedoes, and torpedoes do explode and do damage to a cruiser?

In 1.5 I only used DDs once - when fighting Chin-Yen with friends by my BBs. In a later stage when enemy ships were almost all heavy I tried to attack them by eight DDs. At closer range, at low speed, on following course - I could not force either of DD to throw torpedo at all! Neither with Torpedo target ship nor with Torpedo target free. They probably decided they don't need to fire when enemy is almost finished - what an AI!

In my humble opinion instead of making distinct torpedo controls (which by the way probably is quite usefull in Jutland but absolutely useless in DG) there would be great if only one more button appeared - Hold torpedoes. Which means - aim and target but not release untill order. Now when DG is on the Jutland's engine - it possibly became more "jutlandic" than it should be

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

You hunt down cruisers with DDs???

No. My DDs mostly fill the Port Arthur area up with mines and kill off the raiding Russian DDs, which my cruisers usually can't catch. They also screen my BBs from Russian DDs and finish off cripples in fleet battles. All in all, I find them very useful and hate to lose any of them.

I will throw TBs at Russian cruisers, provided I can attack from head-on. The IJN has so many TBs that you can afford to lose a lot of them, which is what usually happens. I've had some success this way, too. One time I charged Askold and Novik with 8 TBs and sunk both of them for the loss of 4 TBs. A good trade, I say .

I could not force either of DD to throw torpedo at all! Neither with Torpedo target ship nor with Torpedo target free. They probably decided they don't need to fire when enemy is almost finished - what an AI!

What was the sea condition? DDs are very low, and if waves are washing over their decks, they're unable to fire their torpedos. It doesn't take much water to make this happen, and the problem wasn't really solved until they started building bigger DDs with raised forecastle decks. RJW-vintage DDs are just large versions of TBs.

In my humble opinion instead of making distinct torpedo controls (which by the way probably is quite usefull in Jutland but absolutely useless in DG) there would be great if only one more button appeared - Hold torpedoes. Which means - aim and target but not release untill order. Now when DG is on the Jutland's engine - it possibly became more "jutlandic" than it should be

Why do you say that being able to aim a ship's torps at a specific target is useless in DG? It works fine for me and I find it quite useful.

[alexsmith]

Originally Posted by Bullethead

What was the sea condition? DDs are very low, and if waves are washing over their decks, they're unable to fire their torpedos. It doesn't take much water to make this happen, and the problem wasn't really solved until they started building bigger DDs with raised forecastle decks. RJW-vintage DDs are just large versions of TBs.

maybe. I could probably miss it. Don't you think a some on-screen icon displaying aproximately weather conditions would be great?

Why do you say that being able to aim a ship's torps at a specific target is useless in DG? It works fine for me and I find it quite useful.

I mean SEPARATE targeting! I doubt I can find any reasonable situation in which guns should fire in one direction and torpedoes opposite! In DG I mean - in Jutland as I've already told it may be quite reasonable - maybe.

Considering fact that sometimes torpedo targeting commands does not work at all - I order to target specific ship, but target is changed suddenly - please, check this out, might be bug And of course - I understand how visibility affects targeting - so please - do not send me back to manual

All I want to say that separate targeting is complex but does not solve the main (IMHO) problem - shooting from margin distance. When DD enters targeting range - it should prepare weapons to be ready to launch torpedoes by order - but not to throw them from 1km! To achive this you must do a lots of tricky things - target only from short distance and wait untill torpedoes train to target - which is sometimes too dangerous - or stop targeting just before launch - and target again at short distance - or do a lot of tricky manoeuvres... These all are toooo complex - especially when you attack by several DD at the same time. All is required - as I think - is a button Hold torpedoes/Release torpedoes - and DD might become quite helpful when they start to launch torpedoes just when YOU want it - not they

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

maybe. I could probably miss it. Don't you think a some on-screen icon displaying aproximately weather conditions would be great?

There is one. One of the buttons along the right edge of the screen is the weather report. This gives the wind speed and direction, the wave height, etc.

I mean SEPARATE targeting! I doubt I can find any reasonable situation in which guns should fire in one direction and torpedoes opposite! In DG I mean - in Jutland as I've already told it may be quite reasonable - maybe.

This is quite useful in DG, too. It's a question of geometry. Suppose your DD is going parallel to an enemy line. The best gun target is the one on the broadside directly across from the DD. However, the best torpedo target is the ship next astern of the gun target, due to torpedoes having to lead the target a lot due to their slow speed.

Considering fact that sometimes torpedo targeting commands does not work at all - I order to target specific ship, but target is changed suddenly - please, check this out, might be bug

The reason that your ship changes her torpedo target is because you gave it a target that was impossible to hit, and which will never apparently become possible to hit. The ship knows, however, that you want it to launch torpedoes and that it probably won't live much longer, so it picks a target it CAN hit, viewing torpedoes as a "use them or lose them" thing.

Assuming the water is calm enough, getting torpedoes to launch requires that you meet their launch parameters. These are:

• The predicted impact point (not the target itself) is within the tube's arc of fire at the moment of launch.
• The predicted impact point (not the target itself) is within the torpedo's range at the moment of launch.

If the launch parameters are not met when you give your ship a specific torpedo target, she will track that target for a little while to see whether the parameters will ever be met. If so, then your ship will continue to track that target and will launch when the parameters are met but subsequent movement of both your ship and the target. OTOH, if these conditions will apparently never be met, the ship will sometimes switch to a different target where the launch parameters ARE met, under the assumption that you want to launch torpedoes and hitting something else is better than being sunk before launching at all. If there's no other parameter-meeting target available, then your ship won't launch at all.

Torpedoes of the RJW only have ranges of 800-1200m. As such, they are unable to reach moving targets when fired from very much behind the target's beam. Remember, they have to end up somewhere ahead of where the target is now, and the further behind the target you are when you launch, the further ahead the impact point will be. Also, the further behind the target's beam you are, the closer to the target you have to be before you can launch.

The best way to use torpedoes, therefore, is to approach the target on a parallel but opposite course. In fact, this is the only approach I ever make on a moving target, because it also minimizes my exposure to enemy fire, both in terms of range and time spent under fire before I can launch. Plus, the torps arrive at the best angle and have the best chance of hitting when fired from ahead of the target.

What I like to do is have my DDs move in line astern more or less perpendicular to the target's course, then turn simultaneously for a head-on approach. This puts some of the flotilla on both sides of the target, leaving it no place to run when it tries to dodge the torpedoes .

When DD enters targeting range - it should prepare weapons to be ready to launch torpedoes by order - but not to throw them from 1km!

You just need to work on the timing of giving the launch order. Only give it as the DDs are approaching the point you want to launch from, so that by the times the tubes swing onto the target, you're in the right place. It's not that hard to do.

[alexsmith]

Originally Posted by Bullethead

There is one. One of the buttons along the right edge of the screen is the weather report. This gives the wind speed and direction, the wave height, etc.

Yeah. I know I mean - an icon DISPLAING weather - like in a weather reports, you know - "light rain", "heavy rain", "fog", "high waves", "low visibility" - indicating the overall weather conditions affecting the battle.

This is quite useful in DG, too. It's a question of geometry. Suppose your DD is going parallel to an enemy line. The best gun target is the one on the broadside directly across from the DD. However, the best torpedo target is the ship next astern of the gun target, due to torpedoes having to lead the target a lot due to their slow speed.

You mean - on ths same course? To fire at the pre-last ship to hit the last? It's a bit tricky, isn't it? More chance to miss at all

The reason that your ship changes her torpedo target is because you gave it a target that was impossible to hit, and which will never apparently become possible to hit. The ship knows, however, that you want it to launch torpedoes and that it probably won't live much longer, so it picks a target it CAN hit, viewing torpedoes as a "use them or lose them" thing.

This means computer knows something I don't know - about when and where that ship will sink? Great! So instead of executing exact order computer decides to do what itself think is better! This explains while sometimes ships leave their line and start drawing circles or begin "avoid collision" manoeuvre when no visible collision expected - computer just know what I don't! It would better avoid enemy gunshells

The predicted impact point...

So, what happens if I decide to change course? What if I predict another point of impact? What if I plan an attack - which my soldiers don't perform cause they have they own plans?

What you've just described works perfect for automatic torpeding! But in "manual mode" - which is quite suitable for DDs - it works against player plans! Because DDs often have not more than one chance to fire - and if computer begins to switch targets or not to launch torpedoes according to "predicted circumstances" - I don't even know what I'm doing here

The best way to use torpedoes, therefore, is to approach the target on a parallel but opposite course.

I usually do it exactly the same. Althouth sometimes I try to attack damaged slow-moving target from back - I mean - on a parallel course of couse. I think it's also suitable position - but AI thinks opposite

What I like to do is have my DDs move in line astern more or less perpendicular to the target's course, then turn simultaneously for a head-on approach. This puts some of the flotilla on both sides of the target, leaving it no place to run when it tries to dodge the torpedoes .

Yeah, it would be great also if DDs could be parachuted from the high - right to both sides of target

You just need to work on the timing of giving the launch order. Only give it as the DDs are approaching the point you want to launch from, so that by the times the tubes swing onto the target, you're in the right place. It's not that hard to do.

But what about training the target? When I give order to target - DDs just start to PREPARE their torpedoes only! And to the time they become ready either target is gone or DD itself is already destroyed. That's what I'm talking about - set target before the launch to aim - and launch torpedoes only when the best moment achived! This is sometimes tricky with current controls...

[Bullethead]

Originally Posted by alexsmith

You mean - on ths same course? To fire at the pre-last ship to hit the last? It's a bit tricky, isn't it? More chance to miss at all

Whether you're on a the same or the opposite course, if the enemy is in order Ship A then Ship B and you're alongside Ship A, you should fire your torps at Ship B. However, not all your guns may bear on Ship B, but all will bear on Ship A.

This means computer knows something I don't know - about when and where that ship will sink? Great! So instead of executing exact order computer decides to do what itself think is better!

The ship calculates a PREDICTED impact point, which is based on both your ship and the target continuing on the same courses and speeds, and the torpedoes running straight. Torpedoes don't always run straight, and 1 or both ships may turn (the target almost always will at least try to dodge). Thus, you don't always hit.

It's pretty easy to figure where the predicted impact point is. Just draw an imaginary line straight ahead from the target and another out from your ship to cross the 1st line. Then mentally adjust the crossing point forward and backwards along the target's line until the line from your ship to the crossing point is about twice as long as from the target to the crossing point. This isn't exactly right, but it's close enough to work reliably.

So, what happens if I decide to change course? What if I predict another point of impact? What if I plan an attack - which my soldiers don't perform cause they have they own plans?

If you change course, it often doesn't change the predicted impact point very much, because your tubes have an arc of fire. Target course changes, however, always have a big effect on the predicted impact point.

If you follow the procedure above, visualizing the lines from the target and your ship to where they cross, you shouldn't have much problem getting into a good launch position. It's actually way easier in DG than in Jutland, because torpedo range is so short everything fits on your screen easily.

And your ship DOESN'T do something it thinks is better than what you want it to do. It's trying to carry out your orders to fire torpedoes. If you tell it to launch at a specific target it tries hard to do so, but if that's impossible, it may then try to launch at something else.

IOW, if your ship changes to a different target than the one you gave it, it's because you gave it an impossible order. And that's your fault for putting your ship in the wrong place to attack the desired target. To avoid this problem, visualize the launch parameters better.

But what about training the target? When I give order to target - DDs just start to PREPARE their torpedoes only! And to the time they become ready either target is gone or DD itself is already destroyed. That's what I'm talking about - set target before the launch to aim - and launch torpedoes only when the best moment achived! This is sometimes tricky with current controls...

Yeah, that's a suggestion I've made myself but it hasn't been a high priority because, with practice, you can still get good results without it. However, turning in a suggestion might help sway opinions.