Real Submarine Technology & History Q&A

[DaveyJ576]

Here is an interesting sidebar to Platapus's post about the title and rank of Captain.

An ensign is the lowest officer rank, and is the first rank an officer achieves after graduating from the Naval Academy position of Midshipman. Ensigns are usually in a bad spot. They are so junior and inexperienced that the enlisted men will barely give them the time of day. The other officers naturally look down at them and are sometimes treated only marginally better than the chairs they sit on. They have to fight for every ounce of respect they get. However, they are still commissioned officers and are expected by the Commanding Officer to take charge and lead men.

In the early days of the New Steel Navy of the 1900's, there were occasions in which an ensign was placed in command of a ship. One such occasion occurred in 1908 when an ensign took command of the USS Decatur (DD-5), a destroyer based at Cavite in the Philippines. In accordance with naval tradition, even this most junior of all officers would have been granted the honorary title of Captain while aboard his ship.

Even though this ensign was considered highly competent, he still managed to run the Decatur aground. He was subsequently tried by court-martial and received a letter of reprimand.

Bouncing back from this incident, this determined officer transferred to submarine duty and eventually moved on to command the submarines C-5, D-1, and E-1 in addition to several submarine flotillas and squadrons. In 1912 he received the Lifesaving Medal for saving an enlisted crewman from drowning.

Devoted to the Navy, this officer went on to have a brilliant career. He served as an admiral's aide, and was the Executive Officer of the battleship South Carolina. He went on to command the heavy cruisers Chicago and Augusta, commanded Battleship Division One, and eventually was appointed the Chief of the Bureau of Navigation.

What eventually became of this lowly ensign, who as Captain managed to run his destroyer aground? On December 17th, 1941 President Franklin D. Roosevelt appointed him Commander in Chief, U.S. Pacific Fleet and advanced him to the rank of full Admiral. He brilliantly led our Navy to victory over the Imperial Japanese Navy in WWII.

His name? Chester William Nimitz. Tomorrow, as you celebrate Memorial Day, remember this man. Celebrate his life and accomplishments, along with all of the other men and women who have fought to keep us free.

[Platapus]

Way cool history.

Does the title of Captain, apply to the commanding officer of any ship? How about the itty bitty ones?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Does the title of Captain, apply to the commanding officer of any ship? How about the itty bitty ones?

I guess that depends on your definition of "itty bitty". My 224 foot plywood minesweeper was commanded by a Lt. Cmdr and he bore the title of Captain. In general, any vessel considered a "ship" will have a Commanding Officer appointed. A Commanding Officer may bear the title of Captain. Any vessel designated a "craft" (i.e. tugboats, midshipman training boats, landing craft, LCAC, PBR, etc.) will have an "Officer in Charge". An OIC is usually not refered to as Captain and will just use his/her rank.

BTW, an OIC can also be an enlisted man. It was not uncommon during the Cold War for a Chief Boatswains Mate or Chief Quartermaster to be the OIC of a tugboat or PBR.

[Platapus]

Ok this is getting real interesting.

What is the difference between a Ship and a Craft.

And am I correct that only subs are refereed to as "Boats"?

and why are subs boats?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Ok this is getting real interesting.

What is the difference between a Ship and a Craft.

And am I correct that only subs are refereed to as "Boats"?

and why are subs boats?

I think I know this one. "Boats" were originally a term used for craft launched off of ships. The earliest submarines were this type of vessel. In the end, the name stuck.

At least that's something I heard somewhere...

I do know that I have heard quite a few submariners refer to their vessel as a ship. I suspect the "tradition" of calling a sub a boat is far more ingrained in fictional media than it is in real life.

As far as only subs being referred to as boats, I can't say for sure now, but I do know that in previous eras there were other kinds of boats in the USN.

[Kapitan Soniboy]

Did any submarine during WWII have the same commanding officer through the entire war?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DaveyJ576

... Even though this ensign was considered highly competent, he still managed to run the Decatur aground. He was subsequently tried by court-martial and received a letter of reprimand.

Bouncing back from this incident, this determined officer transferred to submarine duty and eventually moved on to command the submarines C-5, D-1, and E-1 in addition to several submarine flotillas and squadrons. In 1912 he received the Lifesaving Medal for saving an enlisted crewman from drowning......

As a landlubber, it is my understanding that grounding a ship is what the Navy refers to as a "bad thing". It tends to limit the commanding officer's upward career mobility.

Do you think that Nimitz was ordered to the Submarines because it would have been his best change to get a command again? From my readings I understand that in the early parts of the 20th century, submarines and submarine duty was not looked at favorably career wise.

If Nimitz had not transfered to Submarines, would he have been given a "second change" with commanding a surface ship?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Kapitan Soniboy

Did any submarine during WWII have the same commanding officer through the entire war?

An interesting question. I need to dust off my Clay as I think he has a list. By initial thoughts would be no. With the need to rotate and promote officers, I don't think the Navy would put one man in command of a submarine from 1939-1945. Even if we limit it to only the years of US involvement in WWII we still have 1941-1945 -- 3 years, 8.5 months roughly.

That is a long time for a commanding officer to have one position. Besides there are PCOs and Executives Officers waiting in line for their command.

[DaveyJ576]

A ship is generally defined as any vessel that is capable of open ocean, long term, independent steaming without the support of a mothership. Examples: Battleship, Cruiser, Aircraft Carrier, Destroyer, Oiler, Ammo Ship, and yes Submarines.

A craft is generally the exact opposite, i.e. it will operate in the "brown water" regions in harbors, rivers, or close to shore. It will have an endurance usually measured in hours, maybe a day or two at the most, and it will require the direct support of a shore base or mothership to complete its mission.

A boat is any ship or craft that operates in fresh water, or one that is normally carried onboard another ship. It will usually meet the definition of a craft.

A submarine is officially considered by the USN to be a ship. In official documents and correspondence it is refered to as such. However, on a person to person basis, the term "ship" is rarely used to describe a submarine. How did subs come to be called boats?

Our earliest submarines were quite small and were designed for harbor defense only. They perfectly met the definition of "craft" that I outlined above. For long transfers from port to port, they were either towed or hauled out of the water and placed on the deck of a ship. Thus the term boat. By 1918, the technology had rapidly improved and the USN had submarines capable of blue water operations and they should have been rightly called ships. However, the term boat had become so ingrained into Navy lexicon that it stuck around, although in a somewhat un-official capacity. Even today, our massive Ohio class SSBN's armed with 24 Trident ballistic missiles are still called boats. It is exceedingly rare for you to hear our submariners to refer to their boats by any other term.

[Platapus]

Davy, we can always count on you to deliver the collimated feces.

[Platapus]

Yet another of my dumb questions...

With the sinking of the USNS General Hoyt S. Vandenberg (T-AGM-10), the following question came up:

What is the difference between a United States Ship (USS) and a United States Navy Ship (USNS).

I thought all big floaty things belonged to the Navy?

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Yet another of my dumb questions...

With the sinking of the USNS General Hoyt S. Vandenberg (T-AGM-10), the following question came up:

What is the difference between a United States Ship (USS) and a United States Navy Ship (USNS).

I thought all big floaty things belonged to the Navy?

A vessel designated with the prefix USS (United States Ship) is owned and operated by the United States Navy and manned with USN sailors. A vessel that carries the tag USNS (United States Naval Ship) is owned by the Department of the Navy, but is operated by the Military Sealift Command and is manned by civilian mariners. Currently, the MSC operates all naval auxiliary vessels such as salvage ships, ammunition ships, combat stores ships, hospital ships, fleet oilers, and fleet ocean tugs, among others. This leaves the USN to operate only combatant ships.

[Platapus]

Much thanks

[DaveyJ576]

Originally Posted by Platapus

As a landlubber, it is my understanding that grounding a ship is what the Navy refers to as a "bad thing". It tends to limit the commanding officer's upward career mobility.

Do you think that Nimitz was ordered to the Submarines because it would have been his best change to get a command again? From my readings I understand that in the early parts of the 20th century, submarines and submarine duty was not looked at favorably career wise.

If Nimitz had not transfered to Submarines, would he have been given a "second change" with commanding a surface ship?

You are absolutely correct. In the early days, the officers that made up the Gun Club looked down their blue blood noses at the "pigboats". They considered them nothing but a toy and the sailors that manned them to be rude, crude, and socially unacceptable. While I can't say for sure, I believe Nimitz's transfer to submarine duty probably saved his career. It gave him a chance to redeem himself by demonstrating his ability to effectively command. It took a while, but submarines eventually gained respect and duty in them took on an air of respectability. Fortunately for Nimitz, and indeed the entire United States Navy, this neatly dovetailed with his career and an outstanding officer was able to pull his reputation from the dustbin of history.

[Kapitan Soniboy]

I have heard of a German submarine which was sunk by an American submarine. They were the only germans who put their feet on American soil during the war (if not the only axis troops), I think. They mounted an automatic weather station there. Maybe it was in Canada... Have you heard of it? Do you know why they did it? The U-boat was later sunk by a Gato.

The weather station was not discovered until the 1970 - 80's and is now on a museum.

Soni

Edit:
I guess this is not relevant AT ALL but you guys seem to know quite a bit of everything