Germans and Americans called off storming of a hijacked freighter

[Freiwillige]

Germany was once a fierce and powerful nation. But once it was destroyed in WWII Germany has lost both the political will and military will to fight. It is a shame because Germany can be strong without being oppressive. Germans can defend themselves and their interests abroad without being over bearing. But German society is always one of extremes it seems, Either you are extremely militant or Extremely Passive. I sincerely hope that Germany finds its balance and stands up for its interests once again.

[Skybird]

Problem is politics, and communal psychology. Which after two started and lost world wars is no wonder, probably. It has castrated Germany of what was evil - but also of things that are good, namely determination to accept even robust force in defence of what is worth to be defended. Until 1989, it was believed that germany's obligation is to stay out of conflicts and fights, to make up for the mess the Hitler tyranny had created for both Germany's neighbours, and germany itself. I would have preferred to compensate for those wrongdoings by engaging in decisive conflicts for sure - but this time to make sure one is standing up for the just and right side instead of injustice and evil.

Politics maybe will, and to some degree have regained willingness to use tougher force if needed. But the public psychology has not followed that.

Militarily, despite the obvious logistical and number-related deficits, germany could play a military role indeed, and a major one, if ignoring the immense costs of reunification that have seriously handicapped state fiances since '89. There are quite some military technology fields were Germany still belongs to the leading global elite, namely conventional submarines (type 212/214 described as the most silent sub in the world), tanks (Leopard-2 described as the best tank in the world, and by far the most produced western tank), and firearms. The potency of the GSG-9 and the military special commandos called KSK are beyond doubt. The GSG-9 has been modelled after the example of the British SAS, and the KSK earned solid respect for it'S display of capability in Afghanistan. Although since long time the government prefers to waste the KSK presence by letting the specialists sit around in the camps, making them unavailable for military planning and operation.

Politicians should make the decison on war and peace. They should listen on the military'S advise pro and contra the various options. But once they voted for war, they should step aside and leave the running of the show to the military. The only German chancellor who really was an insider and thus, kind of an expert for military stuff, was Helmut Schmidt (Lieutenant in WWII). And it showed in his handling of the terrorism issues during his years (he was adamant and very detemrined, though not easy-minded or irresponsible), and his handling of the great storm tide in Hamburg in the sixties: he bypassed the German authorities and bureaucratic hierarchy completely and directly called the NATO headquarter in Brussel and the Saceur of that time, requesting help the german government was capable of, too, but would have taken too much time to organise by itself. Although people died, many more people saved their lives thanks to Schmidt's unorthodox style and authority (which made him many enemies, but raised him much respect and loyalty by the population).

[Jimbuna]

Putting the internal politics to one side if I may (I'm not a German national) it would appear you have the men, training equipment, but only for European theatres of operations in the main.

What is lacking is the equipment that allows you to project those positive attributes across the globe.

The UK is fast approaching, as a consequence of a reduction in military budgets over the past decade, the same level of impotence as yourselves.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Putting the internal politics to one side if I may (I'm not a German national) it would appear you have the men, training equipment, but only for European theatres of operations in the main.

What is lacking is the equipment that allows you to project those positive attributes across the globe.

One word: logistics. I always found it insane to send troops to Afghanistan - but depending on other nations' means (Russia, USA, EU members) to transport these troops there, to maintain a logistic and supply line, even to quickly shuttle them inside Afghanistan.

Which all is a result of the post-WWII-doctrine, of course: never again an aggressive Germany, projection military forces outside it's borders.

but if you can't go to a place by yourself, and cannot get out there by yourslef, and cannot maintain to stay there by yourself - maybe it is a stupid idea then to even wish to go there at all. At least it is in my view.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Skybird

One word: logistics. I always found it insane to send troops to Afghanistan - but depending on other nations' means (Russia, USA, EU members) to transport these troops there, to maintain a logistic and supply line, even to quickly shuttle them inside Afghanistan.

Which all is a result of the post-WWII-doctrine, of course: never again an aggressive Germany, projection military forces outside it's borders.

but if you can't go to a place by yourself, and cannot get out there by yourslef, and cannot maintain to stay there by yourself - maybe it is a stupid idea then to even wish to go there at all. At least it is in my view.

Truer words you'll never speak

[August]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

But German society is always one of extremes it seems, Either you are extremely militant or Extremely Passive.

That is a very astute observation.

[Onkel Neal]

Well, it's easy to pick on the German govt for a lack of resolve. We don't know if there were other factors that led tocalling off the rescue mission. As you said, Sky, there is a lot of risk involved, maybe the families objected behind the scenes...

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Well, it's easy to pick on the German govt for a lack of resolve. We don't know if there were other factors that led tocalling off the rescue mission. As you said, Sky, there is a lot of risk involved, maybe the families objected behind the scenes...

I doubt they have been told in advance that the operation was under preparation. The revealing of it being called off came as a total surprise. It was not even expected that something like this eventually would be taken into account.

[Freiwillige]

As a military force the Bundeswehr has grown out of the ashes of the Wehrmacht into a nice capable force. But it is politicaly neutered.

What good is it having the finest main battle tank in the world the Leopard II if you never get the permission to use it? I almost beleive that the German government would use it for the defence of France or Poland but never for its own self interests. Its almost a self hatred phenominon Germans have nurtered into themselves. My advice, Admit the past and move on for a better future. This National guilt complex for the crimes commited during 12 years 65+ years ago cannot be healthy for your nations future and this political paralises in 2009 can be linked directly to the concious of the German polulation for what happened in 1933-45.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

This nNtional guilt complex

That's what it is indeed. A trauma, and a psychotic self-flagellation.

But it was also a comfortable excuse to shy away from exhausting enterprises, and to practice dollar-diplomacy instead.

Maybe it is changing a bit with the young ones, let's say age 20 or younger. It seems so. However, take into account that while they may not be himndred by the past, they are not used to the trouble of how tough life can be when needing to wage war. They are members of the fun-fun-fun-generation. And that shows even in civil life in peaceful Germany. The expectations are growing into heaven, materialistic desires dominate, economic crisis yes or no. Roman virtues you do not see often these days.

Else, there is nothing wrong in not being enthusiastic to use military forces one does have. I certainly do not want any such enthusiasm. As I often say: determination (in peace as well as in war) is enough. that we have now the latest Leopard2A6 dies not mean we should have participated in the Iraq war, and we (like all NATO) also should not have allowed to get lured into the Afghan maze. There were plenty of too high and too wrong expectations of what could be acchieved from the very beginning. On the other hand, I voted from the beginning for a tough going against the piracy in Somalia, the Lebanon war, and the Gaza operation. All were handled with more or less the brakes set, and in case of the EU and Israel europe opposing the fighting actor. And all of these missions failed for that reason, or are still failing.

[Freiwillige]

I remember a few years back in school we were having an open discussion about the holocaust. People brought in news clippings and the such and one girl brought in a clipping of out of the local paper about how the movie Schindlers List was being shown to German youth in German Schools.

I immedietly spoke up about how wrong and unhealthy it is. The class was puzzled as most had seen this as a great thing. My argument was that having just watched the movie and its graphic content being fresh on my mind was that this was far to inepropriate for children! The article went on to say that the movies were being shown to youth as young as 8!!!!!

Talk about rubbing their nose in it. Nobody under the age of 16 should have ever seen this film. Education is one thing but seeing and being taught that your society is evil from the age of 8 is paramount to commiting national suicide in my oppinion. Few in my class felt sorry for the Germans and felt it was okay. But a couple including my teacher actually saw my point. Education is one thing, but tramatising youth into future guilt is another.

Originally Posted by Freiwillige

Germany was once a fierce and powerful nation. But once it was destroyed in WWII Germany has lost both the political will and military will to fight. It is a shame because Germany can be strong without being oppressive. Germans can defend themselves and their interests abroad without being over bearing. But German society is always one of extremes it seems, Either you are extremely militant or Extremely Passive. I sincerely hope that Germany finds its balance and stands up for its interests once again.

"If you decide to do something, either do it 100% or not at all." <- Old german credo.

Things are changing, however. In less then 15 years this country will have changed quite remarkebly. Lots of stuff going on on a psychological level in Germany, especially related to WW2 and all the history related to Germany before this event. Polititians and the media now refer to killed Soldiers as "gefallen" instead declaring them victims in some kind of accident. The word "Krieg" in reference to Afghanistan is finally acknowledged. And when I watch the youth and listen to their stances, then you have a kinda agressive crowd who is completly fed up with anything WW2 related and not in any way sensitive anymore. Not to forget the military's continuing effort to get the Iron Cross reinstatet.

Interesting times ahead, let's see where all this goes.

Re the GSG-9 incident. Pulling them back was the right thing to do if the situation was too risky. I rather blame the press for making this such a huge story despite the lack of scandal potential. It endangers both the victims and the policemen for no gain but headlines.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Re the GSG-9 incident. Pulling them back was the right thing to do if the situation was too risky. I rather blame the press for making this such a huge story despite the lack of scandal potential. It endangers both the victims and the policemen for no gain but headlines.

Die Welt reports today that the commander of the GSG-9 was not giving his Go, becasue it weas unknown where under deck, in what rooms, the hostages are being held. Two weeks earlier, Die Welt says, the newspaper learned about the sending of GSG9-unis to Africa, but the government asked it to withhold the information and not to publish it. die Welt followed that request.

They also report today that the decising signal to call off the mission came from the Americans, with a close security adviser to Obama showing up and pulling back the USS Boxer from where the Germans were operating. It is unknown why the amerirans decided that way. Theories include that they monitored internal German communications both on military and political level and noticed maybe differing assessements of the various german authorities and offices, or that they wanted to avoid being pulled into a faling bloodbath right when Obama was marking his 100th day in office.

Schäuble and Steinmeier may have been united in their detemrination, nevertheless this event shows that too many cooks spoil the brew, the there are too many offices guarding their powers jealously (an old problem esoecially of Germany's various secret services, plus interferences by chnaging competences on federal levels), and that Germany's logistic capacities are insufficient to run such operations independantly. - We did not have to wait long for the pirate's reaction: another German freighter has been hijacked by pirates yesterday.

agreed.