Galveston mayor visits Cuba

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Yah. that works

Seriously, Cuba has been under a dictator as long as I have been alive. I know to some, that's no big deal but to me dictator = bad in every case.

[Skybird]

The latest indications that the US policy towards Cuba will become a bit more relaxed, has my support. Can't say the same regarding today'S new'S reports that due to a more relaxed US stance European diplomacy dares to start becoming closer with Hamas.

The "Obama doctrine" to start playing more softly with everybody, no matter whom, seems to produce a bag of mixed results, depending on the faction that gets treatment by it. In case of Cuba, I see little or no problem with it. With regard to Hamas and Iran, or any Islamic faction, I see US diplomacy being pushed into the defensive, and EU diplomacy becoming even more submissive to Islam. Regarding Pakistan and promising to give them even more money, I label that as a naive folly. Regarding North Korea - cannot judge at this time.

But Cuba -well, for the sake of the Cuban people, yes, try something new there, the past 40 years have not created anything more than a big block of ice - and Castro probably was the one Cuban suffering not at all from that. whenever I heared tourists reporting about their experience with the Cubans, they always seem to have only good things to say, how friendly they are despite their economic misery, how relaxed life is going despite the problems, and that one must not be afraid to walk alone on the city's streets in the middle of the night.

It cannot all be bad about Cuba. One of the very few remaining places on earth I eventually would consider to give one more travel to.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Ah, thanks for that, Warhawk, missed it the first time I revisited this thread.

But is this really the same embargo imposed on Cuba in the course of the Cuba crisis? Just wondering, back then Cuba was cut of from all trade, esepcially russian shipping, not just US trade.

Yes, that is about it. If you are shipping nukes from Russia to Cuba, 80 miles off our shores, you pretty much done with anything and are under the glass. (as a side note, the USS Torsk was part of that picket to turn the Russian ships around). Not to mention, Cuba is Communist with a dictator. Basically on the other side of the spectrum of how the US operates.

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Yes, that is about it. If you are shipping nukes from Russia to Cuba, 80 miles off our shores, you pretty much done with anything and are under the glass. (as a side note, the USS Torsk was part of that picket to turn the Russian ships around). Not to mention, Cuba is Communist with a dictator. Basically on the other side of the spectrum of how the US operates.

Yeah, but the Embargo we are talking about now just applies to trade inbetween Cuba and the US, it's not a complete cut off from the rest of the world like at the times of the crisis. Insofar I always wondered about the usefulness of this embargo anyways, it beeing more a principle then a problem solving or pratical measure. Disliking Castro and detaining communism is more then understandable in my book, but one should have thought it has to go hand in hand with a plan for future action based on possible outcomes.

This, however, has never been done, at least not in a proportion that I heared about it, yet. It appears to be a measure taken out of the circumstances back then and just carried over because nobody ever really thought about what to do next. To just sit it out until Castro dies and communism hopefully with him does not make the impression of a seriously thought out plan to bring this conflict to an end. At latest when the USSR collapsed this thought process could have started.

Insofar I do not see any harm in opening up to Cuba, really. It's a place in dire need of modernisation and investments, it's a win win, really. And if things go wrong after all, for some reason, the US surely is large and powerful enough to respond in kind before Cuba becomes dangerous in whatever regard.

[Max2147]

The US trade embargo on Cuba predates the Cuban Missile Crisis. The embargo was put in place in February, the Crisis didn't happen until October.

The travel restrictions followed in 1963. All those policies were Presidential directives until 1992, when Congress passed them into law. The restrictions were reinforced in 1996 after the Brothers to the Rescue shootdown.

The naval blockade during the Cuban Missile Crisis was completely different. It was brief and was lifted after the Crisis ended.

The trade embargo and other restrictions have been huge failures. The goal was to get Castro out of power. In fact, they've helped keep Castro in power for all these years. It allowed Castro and friends to blame any problems in Cuba on the US embargo, thus keeping people blind to the flaws in the socialist system.

If we lift the embargo and the travel restrictions, socialism in Cuba will disappear within a couple years. Cubans will be flooded with American goods and rich American tourists, and the lies they've been told about the superiority of socialism will be exposed. The only way the Castro clique will stay in power is if they morph Cuba into a socialist in name only country like China.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Max2147

The US trade embargo on Cuba predates the Cuban Missile Crisis. The embargo was put in place in February, the Crisis didn't happen until October.

The travel restrictions followed in 1963. All those policies were Presidential directives until 1992, when Congress passed them into law. The restrictions were reinforced in 1996 after the Brothers to the Rescue shootdown.

The naval blockade during the Cuban Missile Crisis was completely different. It was brief and was lifted after the Crisis ended.

The trade embargo and other restrictions have been huge failures. The goal was to get Castro out of power. In fact, they've helped keep Castro in power for all these years. It allowed Castro and friends to blame any problems in Cuba on the US embargo, thus keeping people blind to the flaws in the socialist system.

If we lift the embargo and the travel restrictions, socialism in Cuba will disappear within a couple years. Cubans will be flooded with American goods and rich American tourists, and the lies they've been told about the superiority of socialism will be exposed. The only way the Castro clique will stay in power is if they morph Cuba into a socialist in name only country like China.

The travel restriction stemmed from the Bay of Pigs deal?

[Max2147]

It's hard to say that X led to Y led to Z.

The chronology, for what it's worth, was:

April 1961: Bay of Pigs
February 1962: Economic embargo
October 1962: Cuban Missile Crisis
February 1963: Travel restrictions, Cuban assets in US frozen

Again, it's hard to say that one event led directly to another. I think the bigger issue is that the Cuban American population in Florida was making a lot of noise around that time. One of the biggest changes today is that there's a new generation of Cuban Americans that have never been to Cuba and don't have the memory of fleeing Castro.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Yeah, but the Embargo we are talking about now just applies to trade inbetween Cuba and the US, it's not a complete cut off from the rest of the world like at the times of the crisis. Insofar I always wondered about the usefulness of this embargo anyways, it beeing more a principle then a problem solving or pratical measure. Disliking Castro and detaining communism is more then understandable in my book, but one should have thought it has to go hand in hand with a plan for future action based on possible outcomes.

This, however, has never been done, at least not in a proportion that I heared about it, yet. It appears to be a measure taken out of the circumstances back then and just carried over because nobody ever really thought about what to do next. To just sit it out until Castro dies and communism hopefully with him does not make the impression of a seriously thought out plan to bring this conflict to an end. At latest when the USSR collapsed this thought process could have started.

Insofar I do not see any harm in opening up to Cuba, really. It's a place in dire need of modernisation and investments, it's a win win, really. And if things go wrong after all, for some reason, the US surely is large and powerful enough to respond in kind before Cuba becomes dangerous in whatever regard.

You pretty much covered it. The one sentence you wrote concerning possible future outcome, etc. Sometimes I wonder if a few Presidents look beyond the 4 years of their tenure. Those that don't only look to th end of their term as the only future concerning them. Although this is hard to examine as JFK did not finish his 4 years. Who knows what JFK would have done in his last year as president or another 4 more years if elected and he was not assassinated. Only conjecture. At this point, you are correct, embargos for Cuba are useless.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Yah. that works

Seriously, Cuba has been under a dictator as long as I have been alive. I know to some, that's no big deal but to me dictator = bad in every case.

Same as I Neal. Cuba has always been under the thumb since I was a kid. Heck, my dad was almost part of the Bay of Pigs. His number was not selected and he did not go.

[Jimbuna]

I thought Castro was old now and had stepped aside for his younger brother Raul......or is this just a smokescreen?

http://www.economist.com/world/ameri...ry_id=13518718

[SteamWake]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I thought Castro was old now and had stepped aside for his younger brother Raul......or is this just a smokescreen?

http://www.economist.com/world/ameri...ry_id=13518718

Its up for debate, some even say Castro is dead and they have a body double in his place. Cubans are big on conspiracys.

At any rate whatever Raul said to the administration evidently was 'mis interperted' according to Fidel.

Fidel while aged and frail still pulls the strings.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

I thought Castro was old now and had stepped aside for his younger brother Raul......or is this just a smokescreen?

http://www.economist.com/world/ameri...ry_id=13518718

I guess a bit of both. Most think Castro is dead and this is a darn good stand in. Who really knows.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I guess a bit of both. Most think Castro is dead and this is a darn good stand in. Who really knows.

Probably only old Fidel

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Probably only old Fidel

I suspect it is Fidel. A lot of speculation on this. Every picture I see it sure looks like Fidel. Been looking at the guy for a long time. I think the Cuban cigars have a special fountain of youth in them.

[Jimbuna]