Iron Coffins

[Sensekhmet]

Originally Posted by Thomen

Basically, what that means, I have to double check everything what might be interesting for my research and where he is the main source.

I always thought that double (heck, even triple) checking and cross referencing was the standard research method, regardless of subject or author.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by Pepe le Moko

Hmm I don't understand why you people get all defensive and seem to take it personally like that when someone claims that maybe the book is not all it is cracked up to be.

Oh no he's criticizing Iron Coffin!!!1 How dare you! Burn him at the stake!!!

The book is a decent read yes but it is not gospel, is it?

Granted his tone is a bit harsh and all but seriously....

Read my post again. Clearly, at the moment, you do not understand it.

[HW3]

Any book that is written 25 years after the events took place is bound to not be 100% accurate. Does that mean it should be classed as pure fiction and not worth reading? Does it mean it is 100% gospel truth not to doubted at all? The answer is no on both accounts. It really is a shame that all humans do not have photographic memories, and can remember all the little details that happened to them 25 years ago, exactly as they happened. I, quite frankly, am glad that a few of the men who were there, took the time to set down and write of their experiences. By doing so, they add the human factor to the dry facts that can be found in the archives of the various nations involved. Are their memories 100% accurate? Probably not but, who are we, who weren't there, to judge them for it? Read the books and remember, these are the memories of men far removed from the time the events they write about took place, and cut them a little slack if they do get something wrong.

[JU_88]

@ LukeFF,
Nothing wrong with being objective, but with that in mind - remember that the Author of the book was actually there in the midst of it, where as Dr Rohwer was not....

A historian is only as reliable as his sources whatever they maybe. Sure the author sexed things up for the book - but the same is done to any novel 'based' on real events.

There is nothing to stop historians from putting their own 'spin' or views accross in there work either, they are only human at the end of the day and its not like they are higher beings or force fed truth serum every morning.
Supposedly they are meant to present us hard facts & evidence, (just as politicians are supposed to always present the truth ) So they too can be 'selective' about that they want us to hear.

You yourself are only taking what Rohwer has written at face value, making you no different from an Iron Coffins reader who believes Werner's accounts to be factual.

My point is that a lot of the time, people will simply re-enforce what they CHOOSE to believe and will discredit what they choose not to, that is human nature.

Anyways, I couldn't really give a toss either way, For me Iron Coffins was a very enjoyable read, and thats all that mattered IMHO.

[Hitman]

________________

The red line above is the limit, which this thread has reached. Any further rude remarks from someone towards another and I'll close it and start shooting on sight. I'm sure the same information/opinions can be transmitted in a more friendly way.

Thanks

[sharkbit]

Anyways, I couldn't really give a toss either way, For me Iron Coffins was a very enjoyable read, and thats all that mattered IMHO.

+1

[GoldenRivet]

you know the original purpose of post #1 from yours truly was intended just to say "hey... this is a good book... if you are interested in a decent read i recommend it."

i didnt try to sell it as gospel, i didnt lay it on the altar, i just said it was a good book and a fun read.

now you are all more than welcome do disagree with me - i dont really care - thats great... but i'm just making a book recommendation here.

whether or not everything is true, or a little bit fabricated or outright false doesn't change the fact that the book was a good fun read for me and possibly for others.

everyone has an opinion - its how they put that opinion out there.

its much nicer to say "Well, i didnt care for the book because it was not well written and seemed to contain a lot of Werner's personal opinions on the war." (well no kidding right... it is entitled "iron coffins: a personal account of the German U-Boat Battles of WW2")

but if you just come right out with "Werner Sucks!! he wrote a crappy book that completely twists everything that is true about the U-boat war!!! we should all burn this book!!!"

well to come across that way is just disrespectful... especially when you start to talk trash about whether or not a man who was there actually did anything of merit during the war. GIVE ME A BREAK... i dont care if he was a military postal clerk throughout WW2.... HE WAS MORE THERE THAN ANY OF US.

would you really sit in front of a veteran while he was telling his story and call him out on what you think is BS and what is not???

[Thomen]

Originally Posted by Sensekhmet

I always thought that double (heck, even triple) checking and cross referencing was the standard research method, regardless of subject or author.

Oh it is, but unfortunately it is not always that easy or even doable. And it gets very frustrating if you know your main source's conclusions are at least questionable, but everyone points you back at it as the being the 'sole authority' on the subject anyways, as it is the case with Rohwer. It gets even worse if the actual amount of information is rather limited.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Ordered

I'm about half way through the book. The HMS Storm is sent to patrol the Indian Ocean. First book I have read concerning this part of the world. As much as I read about the fleets and the uboats, the British subs do not seem to get a fair shake. Seriously, I did not know British subs were dispatched for a billet in the Indian Oceans.

[Sensekhmet]

Originally Posted by Thomen

Oh it is, but unfortunately it is not always that easy or even doable. And it gets very frustrating if you know your main source's conclusions are at least questionable, but everyone points you back at it as the being the 'sole authority' on the subject anyways, as it is the case with Rohwer. It gets even worse if the actual amount of information is rather limited.

I fully understand. I'm writing a master's degree (or rather: I'm trying to write) on the subject of motorsport sociolects and damn: it's pretty much impossible to find anything on the subject. And with no 'serious, scientific' sources, how am I going to prove to the reviewers I didn't made it all up?

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I'm about half way through the book. The HMS Storm is sent to patrol the Indian Ocean. First book I have read concerning this part of the world. As much as I read about the fleets and the uboats, the British subs do not seem to get a fair shake. Seriously, I did not know British subs were dispatched for a billet in the Indian Oceans.

Would you believe that about five actually went to the far east

The V class were a modification of the U design, but being of partly welded construction they were able to dive deeper. Construction was much reduced when the war in the Mediterranean eased off, and stopped altogether when VE-Day arrived. Four of the class operated in the Mediterranean, three of which (Virtue, Vivid and Vigorous) went on to operate in the Far East in 1944/45, though they must have been the most uncomfortable of all naval vessels in that area, due to the extreme humidity. They were joined in the East by Vox and Voracious. Of interest, all the V class were built by Vickers Armstrong, either at Barrow or on the Tyne.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~gchalcraft/sm/UClass.html

[AVGWarhawk]

It is interesting because one of the ballast tanks was modified for fuel to make the transit. Very enjoyable reading. He does touch on the heat a bit and what to wear(or not to wear). Ration fresh water. You will find his account of getting sunk by one of his own surface skimmers during a night transit. He was never the same when patrolling at night after that incident. I can not say as I blame him. I would say anymore and ruin it for you.

Great link! Thx.

I checked on the S classes in the link. In the book I believe it was an engineman who made a short poem citing all the S classes the went down. You will read it. Neat poem, sad subject.

[kiwi_2005]

Originally Posted by Hitman

History and life are not always the same as the romantic idea we sometimes have of them; nevertheless knowing the truth doesn't hurt and doesn't also mean you can't keep a romantic idea where appropiate. it's just that things are not always in all of their parts what you thought of them.

For those of you who are prepared to see a very different version of U-Boat crews, (And that coming from an official source) that will tear down a good amount of romanticism, follow the link I posted below:

BUT WARNING: Those who want to keep the "Das Boot" image of the real crews, DON'T READ IT

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-570INT.htm

U 570 is mentioned in the book 'The Golden Horseshoe'

If anyone's interested:

Only the First Lieutenant was held a coward by the German POW's. Rahmlow was moved for his own safety to another camp before the German POW's could have a Council of Honour meeting to dicussed the Captains outcome. (Rahmlow arrived days later this is why he was not questioned first) Yes the First Lieutenant of U-570 was held as a coward by the German prisoners but he did try to redeem himself.

When the crew of U-570 turned up to the prison camp the POW's formed a " Council of Honour" held by Otto Kretschmer Captain of U-99 (we all know who Otto Kretschmer is so i wont go into any detail who he is, If you dont know then read 'The Golden Horseshoe' or head to U-boat.net research info there! ) to discuss Rahmlow and his officers fate. Questions were asked:

1. Had Rahmlow and his officers shown cowardice?
2. Had Rahmlow been at fault in abandoning his command by paddling over to the destroyer?
3. Why had U-570 not been scuttled to avoid capture?


Kretschmer announced to the Council of Honour's opinion and his own decision, The First Lieutenant had been found guilty of cowardice in the face of the enemy, and when the German's occupied England he was to be handed over to the authorities for court-martial. This sentence in effect isolated him from the rest of the POW community. Two other naval officers of his term were ordered by Kretschemer to be responsible for looking after him.

The strain of not only being a prisoner but of being ex-communicated by his countrymen was too much for the First Lieutenant. A few days later one of the guardians reported that he realised now that he had behaved like a coward and wished to allowed atone by committing suicide. Kretschemer replied by saying that such a stupid suggestion made him even more of a coward.

To make a long story short. Information was gathered that U-570 had been taken to Barrow-in-France, where she was moored to a buoy in a narrow channel. After this information had been confirmed by a talkative guard it was passed to Kretschmer, who immediately called a meeting of senior officers in his room to tell them of a plan which might serve the two-fold purpose of destroying the U-boat and giving the First Lieutenant a chance to regain his honour. He was to be told to escape with the mission of getting to Barrow, boarding the U-boat and scuttling it. If he agreed to this plan the Council of Honour would see to it that this mission was taken into account at his eventual court-martial. The officer agreed and at once the plan was put into action.

The First Lieutenant managed to escape but not get very far he was found by the home guards who found him hiding near some rocks, after questioning they believed his planned story but to be sure they wanted to take him to be identified thus the Lieutenant knew he would be identified as the missing prisoner so he made a run for it. After the guards had ordered him to stop which he didn't they open fire, with a bullet hitting him in the back, still alive they took him to a nearby farmhouse where the farmers wife tried to tend to his wound the best she could while one of the guards was sent to get a doctor. The First Lieutenant was dead before the doctor arrived.

Otto Kretschmer ordered that the First Lieutenant cowardice be wiped and replaced with the honor he deserved.

Full story can be found in The Golden Horseshoe pages 158 - 167

[JU_88]

Hey, many Of the British S and the larger T class Subs served in the Far East, a few of them started the war patroling in the north Sea (Norwiegen campaign)

Then made there way to the Med, where they had the most success and Impact on the Axis occupation in North Africa -
and if they survived that - some later ended up traveling to south east Asia (Via the Allied controlled Suez cannel)
They were based out of Trincomalee (Ceylon)then later opperated out of Fremantle (Australia).

I'd love a British Sub campaign to come to SH more than anything, first you get to battle it with the Germans, then the Italians, and lastly the Japanese...
It would make damn nice change from the usual Type 7 / Gato Line up - simming in those sub types is really getting pretty old in my opinion.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by JU_88

Hey, many Of the British S and the larger T class Subs served in the Far East, a few of them started the war patroling in the north Sea (Norwiegen campaign)

Then made there way to the Med, where they had the most success and Impact on the Axis occupation in North Africa -
and if they survived that - some later ended up traveling to south east Asia (Via the Allied controlled Suez cannel)
They were based out of Trincomalee (Ceylon)then later opperated out of Fremantle (Australia).

I'd love a British Sub campaign to come to SH more than anything, first you get to battle it with the Germans, then the Italians, and lastly the Japanese...
It would make damn nice change from the usual Type 7 / Gato Line up - simming in those sub types is really getting pretty old in my opinion.

Yes it would be some fresh air. I read in this particular book (One of our Submarines) his stint in Malta. In transit to Malta his sonar heard props submerged. He was planning on a sonar attack but decided to call it off as it might have been one of his own. As it was found out, this was a British sub he was tracking. Good stuff. Currently in the book he is commanding the HMS Storm. Spotted a Japanese sub on the surface but could not get in good firing position. This is were I stopped reading last night.