Iron Coffins - Page 5

FIREWALL · 04-13-09, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Maybe in training, but not in combat.

If you even read the book you'de know different.

GoldenRivet · 04-13-09, 11:57 PM

Yes... in combat.

attacking targets and formulating bearing and range information though the UZO/TBT during surfaced attacks was generally the job of the "exec" - a capacity in which Werner served for several very successful patrols.

do read the book, and visit u-boat.net and learn of the history of the u-boat war... it will be very enlightening.

Sensekhmet · 04-14-09, 09:05 AM

War is complicated business.
I always wondered, why people think that war criminals, murderers, rapists and the lot were any different from 'normal' people with families, talents, hobbies and interests. My hobby is motorsports, I don't even think about comparing it to war, but it does put 'normal' people under stress. And guess what? People change. In everyday life I'm a lazy slacker bastard, very careful not to get myself hurt or even dirty. When I'm racing, I'm a perfectionist, unforgiving (to myself and others), I get cold, emotionless, I'm in a state that can perhaps be best described as 'cold controlled aggressive sociopath', watching the world through squinted eyes and with a stiff jaw. I do things that in normal situation would make me scream like a little girl, not to mention things that would put me in harm's way an things I'd be UNABLE to do in the first place. Belieave me, I can slide the car while racing, but in normal everyday driving I get stiff, my hair stands on end and usually I screw up if I loose grip (of course, experience makes such situations a lot easier to handle and I know how to prevent them from happening in the first place). I'll also happily put myself under both physical and mental strain. Only when I return home I'm shocked to feel like I'm dead: my muscles hurt, I have strains and bruises (where did those come from?) and mentally I feel like a zombie, like someone scooped out my brain and left nothing but an empty space. But it's all good the next day, I'm back to my normal self. I sit down in front of my PC and browse through photos from the last day's event, knowing it was me who did those things but already finding it hard to believe. "Yeah, I guess it's me in that photo... but I couldn't possibly do those things, could I? Look at me, I'm just a normal guy."
What I'm trying to say is this: I think war puts normal people in unnormal situations, and they have to cope. But to cope, our organisms need to shift back to primal survival mode and that means people behave differently then they do normally. I also think it's impossible to say, how a proffessor, milkman, miner or a convict will act once the battle stress hits. Some of this stress can be replicated in training but ultimately I think it's a different reaction for each individual. Who will be a coward, a hero, a mate you can relay your life on and who will turn out to be a cocky idiot that will get himself and his squad killed? I can't say 'I'd done this and that differently under those conditions' because I simply do not know myself well enough.

I hope my post makes any sense to you guys.

AVGWarhawk · 04-14-09, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Never read it...but at these prices, I soon will.

Look at the price spread

http://www.amazon.co.uk/One-Submarin.../dp/1844151069

Yep, Amazon is were I got mine for a great price. Good book Jim and I recommend it. I though perhaps you would have read this

Jimbuna · 04-14-09, 12:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Yep, Amazon is were I got mine for a great price. Good book Jim and I recommend it. I though perhaps you would have read this

Ordered

LukeFF · 04-14-09, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

If you even read the book you'de know different.

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

FIREWALL · 04-14-09, 01:51 PM

Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ?

Heck, Das Boot was full of holes and it didn't stop it from being a good read and a good movie.

LukeFF · 04-14-09, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ?

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

nikbear · 04-14-09, 06:45 PM

Was wondering what actually is the accusation that Dr Rohwer is making with regards to IC?

FIREWALL · 04-14-09, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

Sounds more like your defending your boyfriend the good DR's honor.

Pepe le Moko · 04-14-09, 11:05 PM

Hey guys don't get your panties in a twist because someone says that maybe some of the stuff in the book is made up. Honestly I have no idea, but it is not impossible at all.

The tonnage for instance is definitely not accurate. U-Boats skippers had a tendency to do these overclaims from 30% to 100% sometimes and Werner is no exception.

Same thing when he says, Germany and U-Boats were that close to strangling Great Britain and winning the war. It appears it wasn't so. In part because of all these overclaims but also because Donitz underestimated the allied ships construction tremendously. In Clay Blair book, it actually says that 98% of all merchant ships who crossed the Atlantic during the war made it safely. And during the first two years of the war british merchant tonnage actually increased.

But that's a part that is relatively easy to prove and verify. The personal stuff and what he really did, I have no idea but it would be interesting to know.

So yes he did his duty, survived the war and doesn't seem to have been a nazi so that's definitely worthy of respect but the way some of you people take everything from the book at face value and like it is the second coming of the christ is honestly a little disturbing.

Peto · 04-14-09, 11:10 PM

Uboat.net. Werner sank 1 ship as 1WO. None as Captain. Research pays.

Thomen · 04-14-09, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

I use some parts of Rohwers work for my own research. However, there are inconsistencies where his version does not add up, or can't be correlated by other sources. Basically, what that means, I have to double check everything what might be interesting for my research and where he is the main source.

Kpt. Lehmann · 04-15-09, 12:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Not hardly. He is a respected historian and took the time to do the research on the so-called "facts" presented in IC. Have you taken any time to conduct any research on the matter, or are you simply parroting the praise others here have for the book?

Quote:

Originally Posted by LukeFF

Take it up with Dr. Rohwer if you don't like what I've written. Or did you not read my quoted comment up above about how, if all the errors in IC were underlined in red ink, the book would look like a bloodbath?

EVERY personal account of submarine warfare is written with the author'(s) spin on any given situation... REGARDLESS of nationality.

NO INDIVIDUAL ACCOUNT of submarine warfare should be viewed as a cross-section of typical life within any given branch.

Iron coffins is a great read whatever you BELIEVE or however you may FEEL about it or its surrounding subject matter.

What IS obvious is that you are unable to make your case with any class.

Take your attitude problem elsewhere.

Pepe le Moko · 04-15-09, 03:11 AM

Hmm I don't understand why you people get all defensive and seem to take it personally like that when someone claims that maybe the book is not all it is cracked up to be.

Oh no he's criticizing Iron Coffin!!!1 How dare you! Burn him at the stake!!!

The book is a decent read yes but it is not gospel, is it?

Granted his tone is a bit harsh and all but seriously....

04-13-09, 11:57 PM	#62
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	Yes... in combat. attacking targets and formulating bearing and range information though the UZO/TBT during surfaced attacks was generally the job of the "exec" - a capacity in which Werner served for several very successful patrols. do read the book, and visit u-boat.net and learn of the history of the u-boat war... it will be very enlightening. __________________

04-14-09, 01:51 PM	#67
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	Could that Dr. Rohwer be blowing his own horn ? Heck, Das Boot was full of holes and it didn't stop it from being a good read and a good movie. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

04-14-09, 06:45 PM	#69
nikbear Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Northampton,UK Posts: 1,859 Downloads: 86 Uploads: 0	Was wondering what actually is the accusation that Dr Rohwer is making with regards to IC? __________________ 'It is not surely known when the grey wolf shall come upon the seat of the gods' Ericksmal.

04-14-09, 11:10 PM	#72
Peto Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The details of my life are quite inconsequential Posts: 1,049 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Uboat.net. Werner sank 1 ship as 1WO. None as Captain. Research pays. __________________ If your target has a 30 degree AOB, the range from his base course line equals the current range divided by 2.

04-14-09, 09:05 AM	#63
Sensekhmet Loader Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Poland Posts: 89 Downloads: 16 Uploads: 0	War is complicated business. I always wondered, why people think that war criminals, murderers, rapists and the lot were any different from 'normal' people with families, talents, hobbies and interests. My hobby is motorsports, I don't even think about comparing it to war, but it does put 'normal' people under stress. And guess what? People change. In everyday life I'm a lazy slacker bastard, very careful not to get myself hurt or even dirty. When I'm racing, I'm a perfectionist, unforgiving (to myself and others), I get cold, emotionless, I'm in a state that can perhaps be best described as 'cold controlled aggressive sociopath', watching the world through squinted eyes and with a stiff jaw. I do things that in normal situation would make me scream like a little girl, not to mention things that would put me in harm's way an things I'd be UNABLE to do in the first place. Belieave me, I can slide the car while racing, but in normal everyday driving I get stiff, my hair stands on end and usually I screw up if I loose grip (of course, experience makes such situations a lot easier to handle and I know how to prevent them from happening in the first place). I'll also happily put myself under both physical and mental strain. Only when I return home I'm shocked to feel like I'm dead: my muscles hurt, I have strains and bruises (where did those come from?) and mentally I feel like a zombie, like someone scooped out my brain and left nothing but an empty space. But it's all good the next day, I'm back to my normal self. I sit down in front of my PC and browse through photos from the last day's event, knowing it was me who did those things but already finding it hard to believe. "Yeah, I guess it's me in that photo... but I couldn't possibly do those things, could I? Look at me, I'm just a normal guy." What I'm trying to say is this: I think war puts normal people in unnormal situations, and they have to cope. But to cope, our organisms need to shift back to primal survival mode and that means people behave differently then they do normally. I also think it's impossible to say, how a proffessor, milkman, miner or a convict will act once the battle stress hits. Some of this stress can be replicated in training but ultimately I think it's a different reaction for each individual. Who will be a coward, a hero, a mate you can relay your life on and who will turn out to be a cocky idiot that will get himself and his squad killed? I can't say 'I'd done this and that differently under those conditions' because I simply do not know myself well enough. I hope my post makes any sense to you guys.

04-14-09, 11:05 PM	#71
Pepe le Moko A-ganger Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 73 Downloads: 126 Uploads: 0	Hey guys don't get your panties in a twist because someone says that maybe some of the stuff in the book is made up. Honestly I have no idea, but it is not impossible at all. The tonnage for instance is definitely not accurate. U-Boats skippers had a tendency to do these overclaims from 30% to 100% sometimes and Werner is no exception. Same thing when he says, Germany and U-Boats were that close to strangling Great Britain and winning the war. It appears it wasn't so. In part because of all these overclaims but also because Donitz underestimated the allied ships construction tremendously. In Clay Blair book, it actually says that 98% of all merchant ships who crossed the Atlantic during the war made it safely. And during the first two years of the war british merchant tonnage actually increased. But that's a part that is relatively easy to prove and verify. The personal stuff and what he really did, I have no idea but it would be interesting to know. So yes he did his duty, survived the war and doesn't seem to have been a nazi so that's definitely worthy of respect but the way some of you people take everything from the book at face value and like it is the second coming of the christ is honestly a little disturbing.

04-15-09, 03:11 AM	#75
Pepe le Moko A-ganger Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 73 Downloads: 126 Uploads: 0	Hmm I don't understand why you people get all defensive and seem to take it personally like that when someone claims that maybe the book is not all it is cracked up to be. Oh no he's criticizing Iron Coffin!!!1 How dare you! Burn him at the stake!!! The book is a decent read yes but it is not gospel, is it? Granted his tone is a bit harsh and all but seriously....