Obama vows to pursue a planet free of nuclear weapons

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by Max2147

Um, no. It was Kennedy backing down and agreeing to take the Jupiter missiles out of Turkey that resolved the situation.

Wrong analysis! Those missiles were obsolete, and hardly a loss strategically for the USA. Far better to have them out of Cuba. Also Kennedy would have taken on the USSR. The newly formed SEAL teams under command of the late R.H. Boehm were on the ground and in position if ordered to take out the missiles. I know...I knew the man.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Frame57

Wrong analysis! Those missiles were obsolete, and hardly a loss strategically for the USA. Far better to have them out of Cuba. Also Kennedy would have taken on the USSR. The newly formed SEAL teams under command of the late R.H. Boehm were on the ground and in position if ordered to take out the missiles. I know...I knew the man.

Well before making the claim that other people's analysis is wrong, you will have to provide some citations.

Even an obsolete missile like the PGM-19 Jupiter MRBM, with its 1.2 MT warhead is still a threat. I am sure the Russians did not think the PGM-19 was not a threat. Turkey objected severly at the option of removing the Jupiters so they must not have thought there were all that obsolete. Just because a missile is no longer state-of-the-art, does not mean it is without military value.

It was a good deal. We got rid of the Jupiters that Kennedy ordered removed in 1961 (and the Air Force dragged their feet on) and the Russians got rid of their SS-4 and SS-5 equipment on Cuba. We got the better of the deal that's for sure. Especially when the Soviets had to withdraw their equipment in public and our equipment was withdrawn in secret.

It is interesting that in 1959, President Eisenhower made the statement that deploying Jupiters in Italy and Turkey "would be a "provocative" step analogous to the deployment of Soviet missiles in "Mexico or Cuba."

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cub...ri/declass.htm

There was no need to send in any Seal teams for the Soviets had not delivered any SS-5 missiles (only the equipment needed to support the SS-5 was delivered) and only the SS-4 missile bodies were delivered. Fuel had not been delivered nor had any SS-4 nuclear warheads been delivered. According to declassified documents. The electronics and radars had been delivered but were not operational. The missile launch sites were externally complete though.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/cub...nology%202.pdf

There were nuclear warheads in Cuba but they were for Artillery and Surface to Air missiles, neither of which could be used offensively against the mainland USA.

There was no immediate nuclear threat from Cuba, but that does not mean that there was no threat. If the Soviets had been able to successfully deploy their SS-4 and SS-5 missiles it would have been a hard bargaining chip for future negotiations.

In just considering the missile systems under consideration (ignoring all the other nuclear missiles in the inventory) Khrushchev was trading his non-operational SS-4 and SS-5 missiles in Cuba for Kennedy's operational Jupiters in Turkey. Not all that bad of a deal for Khrushchev either.

However, it is most important to realize that the negotiations between Kennedy and Khrushchev encompassed much more than just the missiles.

It is fascinating period of diplomatic history.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Originally Posted by August

Your people didn't have a problem with American arrogance when we were liberating your country from Skybirds relatives...

Just when I thought this thread couldnt get any more stereotypical

[Frame57]

Well Sonny...LCDR R.H. Boehm was there and you were not, so who do you think i would trust on this. If Roy saw the missiles then as far as I am concerned they were there. They were fully prepared to destroy them if need be.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by Frame57

Wrong analysis! Those missiles were obsolete, and hardly a loss strategically for the USA. Far better to have them out of Cuba. Also Kennedy would have taken on the USSR. The newly formed SEAL teams under command of the late R.H. Boehm were on the ground and in position if ordered to take out the missiles. I know...I knew the man.

Where did I say that taking the missiles out of Turkey was a bad move?

Apparently JFK had already planned to take the missiles out of Turkey before the crisis erupted. As a result, he had a convenient carrot to offer ol' Nikita to solve the crisis.

But regardless of the obsolescence of the missiles or JFK's prior plans, the fact remains that it was JFK's carrot that got the missiles out of Cuba, not the stick.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Kapitan_Phillips

Just when I thought this thread couldnt get any more stereotypical

Odd, considering the source...

Have YOU ever taken a conservative viewpoint?

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Max2147

Where did I say that taking the missiles out of Turkey was a bad move?

Apparently JFK had already planned to take the missiles out of Turkey before the crisis erupted. As a result, he had a convenient carrot to offer ol' Nikita to solve the crisis.

But regardless of the obsolescence of the missiles or JFK's prior plans, the fact remains that it was JFK's carrot that got the missiles out of Cuba, not the stick.

You're fooling yourself if you don't think that it was a little bit of both.

If you're suggesting that removing the US nukes from Turkey was the carrot, need I remind you that the missiles being there in the first place was the stick that made the carrot possible?

Funny how that brings us full circle ... without the weapons to begin with, what exactly is our deterrent (carrot)?

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by August

Your people didn't have a problem with American arrogance when we were liberating your country from Skybirds relatives...

i can vouch for that. When i met the band of Brothers, there was a guy sitting at our table from the Netherlands who was involved with the Band of Brothers memorial in Eindhoven(?) He has some really funny comments regarding the other Europeans. His perspective was very interesting. He hadn't forgotten what our Nation (along with Britain and the allies) had done for their Nation. His comments regarding the French and the Germans were priceless. I won't repeat them here.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

Originally Posted by Aramike

Odd, considering the source...

Have YOU ever taken a conservative viewpoint?

Yep, but I was referring to the "You didnt mind our arrogance when we were liberating you from the Germans" line.

[SteamWake]

Errrr back on topic..

I see russia has taken Obama's word to heart and decided to test an ICBM

the Kremlin says the financial crisis will not discourage it from spending as much money as needed on defense

http://www.reuters.com/article/gc07/...5391A320090410

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Errrr back on topic..

I see russia has taken Obama's word to heart and decided to test an ICBM

http://www.reuters.com/article/gc07/...5391A320090410

I see you *accidently* forgot to include the first part of the statement.

Test launches of new missiles have become routine in recent years, and the Kremlin says the financial crisis will not discourage it from spending as much money as needed on defense.

I am sure that was accidental. Now that we have the complete quote, how exactly is this in response to President Obama when it was President Bush who was President "in recent years"?

[Fish]

Originally Posted by August

Your people didn't have a problem with American arrogance when we were liberating your country from Skybirds relatives...

A strawman, but for your information, it ware mostly Polisch,Canadians and English soldiers. The USA airforce bombed our city's. Arnhem, Enschede, Deventer en Nijmegen city. We still don't know why?
800 deads in Nijmegen only.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Hi Fish. I mean no insult to you. But no, I don't think we "own the world", but we do indeed take ownership of our defense priorities and nuclear deterrence postures. No apologies should be, nor will be made for any of it.

And I won't bother to keep addressing the individual above who is merely wasting his breath and time. The thing is, I attended and completed Squadron Officer's School through Maxwell AFB. I did partial residence as I got shipped off to Germany. In my non-residence portion of the course, I actually had to study this topic in depth in the post Cold War context, and got all of my information straight from the horse's mouth. It was much more than just strategic nuclear deterrence, but that was a big part of it.It also dealt heavily in conventional warfare methods. The conclusions I learned was that a nuclear deterrent capability is still needed post Cold War, and what requirements were needed to maintain it.

The only parameters that have changed since then is that China's arsenal has become more capable, and technologies are proliferating more quickly to questionable regimes. A reversal of conclusions derived from those exercises is not logical. Despite what the self proclaimed "experts" from foreign nations think. Based on what I learned in a professional military environment dealing with this very topic, I do know for sure that 1,000 warheads is not enough to deter major powers, nor meet the basic requirements in redundancies. And there are many other concerns as well. That's why I think Obama won't have the last word on it in the long run. The people who understand these concerns will speak up. Arguing about it in circles with people who have no voice or power at all in US military concerns is kind of a total waste of time. I don't seek to offend you Fish. It just is what it is.

Ok, no hard feelings.
You do not specially offend me but all non USA people, your wording is as if we have no vote at all what happens in the world, big dady USA will think for us.
Well, we can think for our selfs, and make our own mistakes, thank you.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by Fish

A strawman, but for your information, it ware mostly Polisch,Canadians and English soldiers. The USA airforce bombed our city's. Arnhem, Enschede, Deventer en Nijmegen city. We still don't know why?
800 deads in Nijmegen only.

The last time I checked, the Germans caused all of this. Should you be angry at them?

it ware mostly Polisch,Canadians and English soldiers.

I wouln't say that too loudly.
I dare you to tell that to these guys:


Look closely the the emblem on their hats.

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by Fish

A strawman, but for your information, it ware mostly Polisch,Canadians and English soldiers. The USA airforce bombed our city's. Arnhem, Enschede, Deventer en Nijmegen city. We still don't know why?
800 deads in Nijmegen only.

Yep and all of em were driving Shermans