Careful, Paypal users

Skybird · 03-24-09, 04:32 PM

You try hard to not get the point, hm?

While it is correct what you said, and the general reason in using credit cards in general can be qestioned (for example I never use credit card in stores, as I said, only in internet shopping when I do not wish to miss the item in question and the business model is exclusively credit cards), the ppooint is that Paypal suggests an additonal legal backwards insurance that it does not include. That way there is no point in using paypal instead of regular bank transaction, regarding legal standards it is not any safer. You do not get qany additonal security, nor the legal option for additonal claims if something goes wrong. Especially for the selling party this is bad news - becasue they pay additional fees for a transaction service while beliefving they get something additonal for that fee. But they don't. If you do not get anything additonal for it, why sopen ding additonal money when you already pay regular fees for your banking account or your normal credit card?

Clear now?

Onkel Neal · 03-24-09, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

You try hard to not get the point, hm?

Actually, I try hard to ignore you when you are going off about something you know nothing about except what you've read somewhere.

Guess I should try harder

Skybird · 03-24-09, 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Actually, I try hard to ignore you when you are going off about something you know nothing about except what you've read somewhere.

Ah, that truly is a disarming reply.

Well, there is not much insider knowledge you need. Since I did sell items at ebay three times, I know that paypal costed an additonal fee for me if I would have offered it, additional to the auction costs. And since the legal situation is clear by the laws, they claimed (and is confirmed by the consumer protection organisation over here) it thus is clear that Paypal gives the impression to offer an advantage in form of a safety guarantee that to the customer appears as a self-obligation of Paypal that is legally binding, but as a matter of fact is not mandatory at all, and gets refused at times even if Paypal refuses to check the case in question. The customer gains nothing from using paypal that he can really be sure of. He depends on trusting that all parties (now one party more: Paypal, that is) will play clean and nice. And if Paypal refuses to do so, there is nothing he can do, not more than if he had sent money via his credit card or banking account. Paypal charges fees for an advertised feature of assumed guarantees that are no guarantees at all.

And you seem to have a problem with me for saying that.

If you want to be safe because there is more than a low ammount of money involved, Paypal does not increase the safety of your interests in case you want your money back if the item you bought is not matching the descrption, or is a different one than what you have ordered.

If it is something vital to you, do it via old-fashioned personal contact. Evade sending money in advance, or using credit cards. Or Paypal. Serious and respectable shops offer you payment by bill. I honour that by paying the very same day I got something. Paypal gives you no advantage over a credit card - it claims to do so, but it doesn't.

At least with the legal situation in Germany. Check in your own country how it is with your laws. They said on the German Paypal representation that they even say it somewhere deeply hidden in the small print that the seller by paying Paypal essentially only pays for the good will of Paypal - nothing more.

Strange thing to waste money on, if you ask me. You pay for a service that does not give you anything real and legally binding in return. that'S like buying a book that two days later they take away from you again.

I know that paypal can be used for services not related to ebay auctions as well. Note that the report is about Paypal within the context of Ebay.

porphy · 03-24-09, 06:28 PM

But Skybird, you do get something for the fee. The resolution process doesn't cost extra, should you use it. True, it's not a special insurance in a strict sense or some extra legal force behind this, which some may think. And of course paypal doesn't do all this to just to be nice, clearly their reputation and commercials in this area are closely connected to how well trusted their service will be by buyers and sellers. If they can't handle disputes and claims well, no trust, less users, less money for profit. I think it's a good thing that paypal cases are looked into, but I don't think it's right to say that paypal tries to make you pay for nothing with their service.

But if you pay or receive payments through Paypal, there is a clearly stated process for both disputes and claims between buyer and seller, and both have been verified to actually be the persons to hold the account connected to paypal. And if you as a seller get a chargeback for money, this process originates from the credit card company anyway, so paypal only handles the resolving process as they did the transaction.

As in every dispute things can go wrong, you can get unfair judgements etc. this clearly goes for paypal as well, to think otherwise would be naive, but you see these unfair cases all the time when customers and sellers or companies get in a dispute. And it might be worthwhile to remember that paypal can not know in advance who is right in a dispute or a claim, hence the rigid demands on sellers and buyers when they enter this process. You can't be a sloppy buyer and hope for money back, and you can't be careful enough as a seller to ensure you have absolute proof that you did ship the item and ensured it would arrive at the right address.

If you pay any other way, you have the same legal rights, but how would you proceed to get money back for goods that never arrive or is significantly different from the description, or even a fake item? Or if you have an international buyer pulling back transferred money via the credit card company because they argue the item never showed up? I don't think paypal is perfect, but I think there are some real advantages to use that service when buying and selling things on the internet. It seems to me, that if you want to con other people, there are more hoops to jump through before you can set someone up. (For the record, I have never been involved in a dispute or claim so this is purely outside observations about how paypal works.)

But it's still the "internets", so you have to be conscious about that everything that looks too good probably is, as the saying goes.

cheers Porphy

Skybird · 03-24-09, 07:10 PM

You guys do not wish to see it, I must conclude. Fact is that Paypal advertises with telling you you are safe from getting stranded with a transaction you are not happy with - yopu would get your money back, if needed from them, and nthat this is somewhat a given. So you do count on it. You think: if I pay by usiong paypal, even if the seller messes things up, I could get5 back my money from the paypal guarantee. But it is noit like this - you have nnothing to claim from them, you depend on their willingness to be nice with you. You can't make them living up to thei9r promise. It is a misleading advertising by them. The buyer do not pay fpor paypal,l they just get the data on his banking account (you do not know a little bit what they are doing with it). But the seller pays for the the paypal "service", additionally to the auction fee.

I wonder what the problem is in understanding this. People are being made thinking that paypal tramnsacitons are any safer than non-paypal transactions, andn that any addito9nal safety features and money-back-rules come into play, and are obligatory to be fulfilled by Paypal - and this is a very popular misconception. Even more, morons can trick people into buying something messy, making them feel safe by offering paypal. the custommer thinks "Ah, I could try it in safety, it's paypal, I could get my money back anyway, even if it turns out to stink". but evntually - he cannot. Eventually Paypal will refuse to refund in place of the moron, even 9if you can prove that paypal never has checked the case, and did not take note of the evidence you gave. And you have no legal weapon whatever to make Paypal live up to the misleading promise they advertised with. As the German video gives several examples, it is not rare that customers get dissapointed from Paypal when it rejects their demand for refund. not before the magazine - a program focussing on taxes, fincance laws and economics - intervened, Paypaol all of a sudden accepted to refund, as they advertised they would. Which is more about public relation then, than about acceptance of theirs.

Consumer protection centres in germany sday Paypal is no ihgh profiole offender, but also no unknown. That means: they are not the worse but also no rare offender.

People, do not make this more complicated than it is. As a matter of fact it is very, very simple and very, very obvious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by porphy

If you pay any other way, you have the same legal rights, but how would you proceed to get money back for goods that never arrive or is significantly different from the description, or even a fake item? Or if you have an international buyer pulling back transferred money via the credit card company because they argue the item never showed up?

Porphy, the same question is with regard to Paypal. You think you can put a safe bet that they would be more friendly regarding these incidents, as they advertise, but they must not be. You are wrong if you think just by using Paypal yopu have more legal control over interventiuons in case the transaction goes wrong. You believe you have that by using Paypal - but you haven't. And if they decide (as in the examples where they even were proven to not have checked the facts, and just sent form letters of rejection that illustrated they did not check the issue by making wrong claims themselves) to not stand by their advertising, then there is nothign you can do about it. You can't legally force themn, that is the point. You are not any stronger or weaker as if you hd made the transaction via credit card. You depend completely on their good will and kindness - like you do when using a credit card or pay in advance.

NealT · 03-24-09, 07:26 PM

Sky? An interesting opinion and experience you share.

Now from my own perspective, based upon my own personal experience...

I have used it without a hitch. I consider it safer to me than using a bank account for what I use it for. I have never had any problems or issues with it.

Now, if you want to stir it up a bit...why don't you talk with my daughter. She works for Paypal as a Supervisor within the Merchant Tech department. She knows the ins and outs of the system and frankly has dealt with more problems from the Merchant's point of view than Carter has little pills.

In short, my opinion and experiences differ from yours. While I respect your opinion, I do not agree with you.

And I ask that you not respond to my humble rantings as I have no energy to get into an argument.

Skybird · 03-24-09, 07:42 PM

No need to argue anyway. All I did is making clear that you do not have any legal claim to hold Paypal responsible for the promise in it's advertising in Germany, and that people better should check the legal status regarding the law-situation in their own respective countries.

It is also neither my "opinion" nor my personal experience since I do not use Paypal anyway. It was the finding of a research done by a serious economic and finance TV report on second major TV channel ZDF in Germany, named WISO. They found that there is no increased customer protection that is legally manadatory in any form, and that paypal refused to stand by it's advertised promise in several examples they illsutrated in that program. They critised the advertising for being very misleading, giving the impression of legal safety that is simply not there on the basis of german legal backgrounds. Again, this was no B-movie show, the program is quite known and popular in Germany. They release tax calculation software every year which is I think the most used of it's kind in Germany, and supported by the ministry of finance. So, consider them to be a reasonably serious source.

On the legal situation in the US I did not comment. I just recommended every user to check the legal background in his country for sure before putting all his blind faith into paypal and feel safe. It could be different in the US - but it must not be. Just check it in your own country to know for sure where you stand with using Paypal in your country.

That's all for now - and was all from the beginning.

And me - I feel a bit exhausted now...

Dowly · 03-24-09, 11:11 PM

Have used PayPal on, give or take, 30 transactions and have had no problems. I'm just so damn good.

Zachstar · 03-24-09, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Actually, I try hard to ignore you when you are going off about something you know nothing about except what you've read somewhere.

Guess I should try harder

Excellent Post!

I love paypal it is MUCH safer than using a card.

If you want to put your CC or DC at risk Skybird go ahead but leave the damn crap out of it.

FIREWALL · 03-24-09, 11:38 PM

I'm surprised you RIVET -COUNTER / PROOF READERS didn't catch in in all of Skybirds posts.

He kept repeating " in GERMAN advertiseing " for PayPal.

Platapus · 03-25-09, 06:07 AM

How about this for a zany wacky idea?

People who don't like using PayPal should not use PayPal
People who like using PayPal should use PayPal

Just a thought...

longam · 03-25-09, 06:17 AM

Is it time for the pic of the day?

03-24-09, 04:32 PM	#1
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,813 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	You try hard to not get the point, hm? While it is correct what you said, and the general reason in using credit cards in general can be qestioned (for example I never use credit card in stores, as I said, only in internet shopping when I do not wish to miss the item in question and the business model is exclusively credit cards), the ppooint is that Paypal suggests an additonal legal backwards insurance that it does not include. That way there is no point in using paypal instead of regular bank transaction, regarding legal standards it is not any safer. You do not get qany additonal security, nor the legal option for additonal claims if something goes wrong. Especially for the selling party this is bad news - becasue they pay additional fees for a transaction service while beliefving they get something additonal for that fee. But they don't. If you do not get anything additonal for it, why sopen ding additonal money when you already pay regular fees for your banking account or your normal credit card? Clear now? __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-24-09, 06:28 PM	#4
porphy Commodore Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 603 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	But Skybird, you do get something for the fee. The resolution process doesn't cost extra, should you use it. True, it's not a special insurance in a strict sense or some extra legal force behind this, which some may think. And of course paypal doesn't do all this to just to be nice, clearly their reputation and commercials in this area are closely connected to how well trusted their service will be by buyers and sellers. If they can't handle disputes and claims well, no trust, less users, less money for profit. I think it's a good thing that paypal cases are looked into, but I don't think it's right to say that paypal tries to make you pay for nothing with their service. But if you pay or receive payments through Paypal, there is a clearly stated process for both disputes and claims between buyer and seller, and both have been verified to actually be the persons to hold the account connected to paypal. And if you as a seller get a chargeback for money, this process originates from the credit card company anyway, so paypal only handles the resolving process as they did the transaction. As in every dispute things can go wrong, you can get unfair judgements etc. this clearly goes for paypal as well, to think otherwise would be naive, but you see these unfair cases all the time when customers and sellers or companies get in a dispute. And it might be worthwhile to remember that paypal can not know in advance who is right in a dispute or a claim, hence the rigid demands on sellers and buyers when they enter this process. You can't be a sloppy buyer and hope for money back, and you can't be careful enough as a seller to ensure you have absolute proof that you did ship the item and ensured it would arrive at the right address. If you pay any other way, you have the same legal rights, but how would you proceed to get money back for goods that never arrive or is significantly different from the description, or even a fake item? Or if you have an international buyer pulling back transferred money via the credit card company because they argue the item never showed up? I don't think paypal is perfect, but I think there are some real advantages to use that service when buying and selling things on the internet. It seems to me, that if you want to con other people, there are more hoops to jump through before you can set someone up. (For the record, I have never been involved in a dispute or claim so this is purely outside observations about how paypal works.) But it's still the "internets", so you have to be conscious about that everything that looks too good probably is, as the saying goes. cheers Porphy __________________ "The only remedy for madness is the innocence of facts." O. Mirbeu "A paranoid is simply someone in possession of all the facts." W. B.

03-24-09, 07:26 PM	#6
NealT Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: 2 Meters Below Jimbuna Posts: 1,060 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Sky? An interesting opinion and experience you share. Now from my own perspective, based upon my own personal experience... I have used it without a hitch. I consider it safer to me than using a bank account for what I use it for. I have never had any problems or issues with it. Now, if you want to stir it up a bit...why don't you talk with my daughter. She works for Paypal as a Supervisor within the Merchant Tech department. She knows the ins and outs of the system and frankly has dealt with more problems from the Merchant's point of view than Carter has little pills. In short, my opinion and experiences differ from yours. While I respect your opinion, I do not agree with you. And I ask that you not respond to my humble rantings as I have no energy to get into an argument. __________________

03-24-09, 07:42 PM	#7
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,813 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	No need to argue anyway. All I did is making clear that you do not have any legal claim to hold Paypal responsible for the promise in it's advertising in Germany, and that people better should check the legal status regarding the law-situation in their own respective countries. It is also neither my "opinion" nor my personal experience since I do not use Paypal anyway. It was the finding of a research done by a serious economic and finance TV report on second major TV channel ZDF in Germany, named WISO. They found that there is no increased customer protection that is legally manadatory in any form, and that paypal refused to stand by it's advertised promise in several examples they illsutrated in that program. They critised the advertising for being very misleading, giving the impression of legal safety that is simply not there on the basis of german legal backgrounds. Again, this was no B-movie show, the program is quite known and popular in Germany. They release tax calculation software every year which is I think the most used of it's kind in Germany, and supported by the ministry of finance. So, consider them to be a reasonably serious source. On the legal situation in the US I did not comment. I just recommended every user to check the legal background in his country for sure before putting all his blind faith into paypal and feel safe. It could be different in the US - but it must not be. Just check it in your own country to know for sure where you stand with using Paypal in your country. That's all for now - and was all from the beginning. And me - I feel a bit exhausted now... __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-24-09, 11:38 PM	#10
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	I'm surprised you RIVET -COUNTER / PROOF READERS didn't catch in in all of Skybirds posts. He kept repeating " in GERMAN advertiseing " for PayPal. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

03-24-09, 11:11 PM	#8
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,056 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Have used PayPal on, give or take, 30 transactions and have had no problems. I'm just so damn good.

03-25-09, 06:07 AM	#11
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,442 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	How about this for a zany wacky idea? People who don't like using PayPal should not use PayPal People who like using PayPal should use PayPal Just a thought... __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

03-25-09, 06:17 AM	#12
longam Admiral Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,014 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Is it time for the pic of the day?