Type IX/D2

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by pythos

The American fleet boat was several times better than the Type IX and VII...

Now THAT's going too far. The American boats were an incremental, not a revolutionary improvement over the U-Boats. We're not comparing atomic submarines to the USS Holland here. They were in no way several times better. They were a little bit better in several dozen categories, just as the U-Boats were a little bit better in several categories.

They both sank targets and were quite good at it. Germans were less successful primarily because of strategy, tactics, planning, operational procedures and the nature of their enemy. It's too easy to overstate the differences between submarines and U-Boats based on the results of the war.

Were the fleet boats better than the U-Boats? Unquestionably yes! Could the US Navy have achieved the same result with a fleet of Type IX boats? Yes, no problem.

Could the Kriegsmarine have achieved the same result with a fleet of US Submarines? YES. The defects of their operational strategy and the difference in the nature of their enemy dictated defeat, even with a fleet of Type XXIs or Guppies. The Germans could never conceive that the very use of submarines in WWII was counterproductive and was enough all by itself to guarantee the loss of the war. Fortunately, that was not the only fatal mistake the Wehrmacht made. They had a talent for serial blunders of fatal catastophe. Many of these blunders, all by themselves, would have guaranteed German defeat. The regime was rotten to the core and incompetent in matters of war. Although tactically superior, they were strategically destitute.

[Sledgehammer427]

excellent point, RR

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Were the fleet boats better than the U-Boats? Unquestionably yes! Could the US Navy have achieved the same result with a fleet of Type IX boats? Yes, no problem.

Just an idea of an experimental mod: how about doing a vice versa mod and add/remove fleet boats/uboats to/from America/Germany.

Head out of Pearl in an IXd2, or head out of Wilhelmshaven with a Tambor, just for the fun of it...

[Kapitan Soniboy]

Then why did they copy German technology after the war? Without the V-2 rocket you would not have reached the moon in 1969! Tell me, why are the American SABER and Russian MIG which fought against each other in the Korean War so similar to each other? Because both the Russians and Americans copied german technology. I have a friend who served on a submarine and he told me that the VII were so much better in all ways than the American subs. That a VII in the Pacific would be a dream come true for any American submariner. Well, I guess nobody can tell.

The IX-D2 HAD a snorkel. There is one IX-D2 just of the coast here in Norway and it has a snorkel (The only submarine to be sunk by another submarine when both were submerged). Another IX-D2 which was sunk near South-Africa did only run on the surface 15 minutes every day because it had a snorkel. Guys, have you ever seen Das Boot????

Okay, you changed my name. I can understand that but you must know it was just a silly joke. Sorry.

[Torplexed]

Originally Posted by Kapitan Soniboy

I have a friend who served on a submarine and he told me that the VII were so much better in all ways than the American subs. That a VII in the Pacific would be a dream come true for any American submariner. Well, I guess nobody can tell.

With all due respect to your friend a Type VII wouldn't have had the operational range to reach Japan from Pearl Harbor. They could barely reach the Eastern United States seaboard without refueling. Plus, I wouldn't want to spend the month it would take to get there in a cramped sub without air conditioning, limited and unrefrigerated food storage and only five torpedo tubes. The Type IX would be a better bet, but I'd want a US sub's radar fit. It's a big ocean.

Guys, have you ever seen Das Boot????

Yes I did. Rather depressing and if I remember correctly just about half the crew dies at the end. Hardly a ringing endorsement of the U-Boat war.

[Rockin Robbins]

I've always thought that Das Boot was an interesting movie with lots of pretty authentic shots of U-Boats, but with actors poorly mocking the procedures and character of real U-Boat sailors.

The captain is lollygagging around with the periscope trying to be spotted by leaving it wagging in the air too long and suddenly the destroyer (who'da thought????) comes out of nowhere and they do the ALAAAAAAAAARM bit. This is plain silliness! Here's the procedure, the captain has the periscope down. He asks the sonar operator, where's the targets? The sonar opeator tells him a destroyer is approaching on bearing xx. Captain sets the periscope on the bearing, pops the scope up (he crouches over the periscope well, catches the handles on the way up, spins the scope to the correct bearing, peeks, says "Mark", and lowers the scope. It literally just bounces off the top stop, staying up for maybe two seconds.) and calmly takes pre-planned evasion or attack actions. The movie? S_T_U_P_I_D!!!

The main character is some everyman whose function is to whimper in the corner, suffering nobly but incapable of any constructive function on the boat. Give me a break! On a real U-Boat he would have been properly tossed overboard without a life jacket. There weren't enough men on a U-Boat to have a designated corner whimperer. Send him back to his mommy!

When the sub is under attack there is no evasion at all! They just sit down there and hope the enemy misses. Stupid! U-Boats were not helpless victims of war, they actually fought it!

When I watched the movie in ignorance when it first came out I was awed. As I learned more and more about how submarines and U-Boats were run, I looked at Das Boot for what it is: a poor melodrama, whose purpose is propoganda. A lousy anti-war film with great props. An insult to the real U-Boat crews who fought with courage and ability.

[Morpheus]

what a crappy discussion ...

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Morpheus

what a crappy discussion ...

And you didn't exactly add anything to the conversation, now did you?

[Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

... The main character is some everyman whose function is to whimper in the corner, suffering nobly but incapable of any constructive function on the boat. Give me a break! On a real U-Boat he would have been properly tossed overboard without a life jacket. There weren't enough men on a U-Boat to have a designated corner whimperer. Send him back to his mommy!

When the sub is under attack there is no evasion at all! They just sit down there and hope the enemy misses. Stupid! U-Boats were not helpless victims of war, they actually fought it!

When I watched the movie in ignorance when it first came out I was awed. As I learned more and more about how submarines and U-Boats were run, I looked at Das Boot for what it is: a poor melodrama, whose purpose is propoganda. A lousy anti-war film with great props. An insult to the real U-Boat crews who fought with courage and ability.

i am sure you can understand my text if you want to, there are some typos ... normal condition on internet forums. i would like to see you type some german text anyway.

when i re-read your posting from earlier today, i would say that you have a problem with making a point.

i marked out the interessting lines in bold. first, this man was not a everyman whimp, he was what we call a "kriegsberichterstatter", in english, a war correspondent. second, this story is no fiction, it really happend. The man's name you called a everyman whimp was Lothar-Günther Buchheim, and he joint U96 in 1941 as a war correspondent. i read his book, which the movie was made after. Propaganda? For what? Hitler? You must be jokin. It points out so much as a antipropagande for Hitler. Poor Melodrama? What do you think the saving of private ryan or any reasonable movie is? everything else i would call a propagande for making war, no?

As i said earlier, this is coming to a "sensitive" point.

//EDIT: i excanged the word fragile with sensitive, that should help