Religion 101 Final Exam

Originally Posted by Aramike

This statement is true for SOME. There are indeed others who approach the issue with a sense of self-importance.

I am curious as to how your life has been made harder...

What makes a bad impression upon me (someone who's wholly agnostic) is when atheists claim things such as a Ten Commandments display makes their lives harder...

The 10 amandmends certainly don't make my life any harder.

And I never said so. Something I am pretty sure you are aware of.
Please, I respect your intelligence, don't insult mine by deliberately misreading, kay?

In fact, I respect the ten amandmends, as much as I do respect the biblical figure of Jesus (don't know eough about the historical one). He was on the right track with his views and examples. I hardly have a problem with the original message but what christianity made out of it in the course of history and their need for a frightening god to make ppl comply with these messages.
I have a problem when instead of philosophy in school, where common values for all ppl are taught, no matter if christians, jews, muslims etc, is sabotaged by christians who want seperate religious lessons, seperating ppl, giving each of them a different set of values. That is a perfect way to fracture society and hindering integration of, for example muslim communities, into western standarts of values, indepedant of religion. As happend in Berlin recently. Our society is based on enlightment, not religion, respect that as much as atheists respect the right for privatlly held religion.
I have a problem with christians attempting to bring creationism or intelligent design into biology. Or trying to redefine scientific terms like "theory" to label their theology and make it appear reputable.
I have a problem with christians trying to hinder children to learn about sexuality, trying to force them into morale values that are deeply questionable. not because they have no possibility to live those values themselves, but because they want to force others to learn and accept them, too.
I have a problem with christians trying to convert me, or my family into their line of thinking.
I have a problem with prominent christians stating that human rights are not compatible with the bible and just a fashion of the modern era.
I have a problem with christians rather accepting holocaust deniers then liberals within their ranks, as happend here just recently with the catholic church.
I have a problem with religions that want to shut down peopls brain and let them follow a book without question. But that is something christianity shares with quite a couple other ideologies.
And last but not least, I have a problem with religious folks constant attempts to make ppl afraid of god when they don't do as he commands. We had enough dicatorships in real life, no need for any more on the imagination level. I rather rely on common sense when solving problems then to stick what folks wrote into a book 2000 years ago, especially when there are quite a couple other religions out there with contradicting world views.
2.1 billion christians there may be, but that leaves 5 billion thinking otherwise.

[geetrue]

It would be very hard to deny the fact that all things are spiritual no matter what religon you follow or even for a person that denies that there is no God.

A quicking of your spirit feeds the flesh from food to a snake charmer to a naked lady (for most of us).

The baby cries with its first breath ... a spirit is born into the world.

A dog gets caught chasing cars and is run over now stiff and dead, but before that moment arrived the dog was full of energy barking and chasing
after the cars on the road.

The body is dead without the spirit.

Saint Paul in a letter to the church at Corinth said,

"Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but we received the Spirit that is from God so that we can know all that God has given us.

And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit.

And so we explain spiritual truths to spiritual people. A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God.

That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit."

As for the Ten Commandments the first christians were non-jews taught by the Jewish disciples including St Paul. but when the problem arose that they had to conform to the Jewish customs which certainly included circumcision and the laws of Moses to follow the Ten Commandments this is what St Paul had to say,

"Tell me this one thing: How did you receive the Holy Spirit? Did you receive the Spirit by following the law?

No, you received the Spirit because you heard the Good News and believed it. You began your life in Christ by the Spirit.

Now are you trying to make it complete by your own power? That is foolish."

I believe that the blood of Jesus paid for all of my sins on the cross at Calvary. That is when Jesus loved us ...
when you love Jesus thats when something super natural happens.

I believe Jesus is the son of God and that He now resides in heaven at the right hand side of God,
but He also lives in the heart of every believer through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I have to die to find out if I am right ...

That's when it will be too late for many, even if they did profess to follow after Jesus and call themselves christians.

Jesus said to his own disciples,

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

[Aramike]

The 10 amandmends certainly don't make my life any harder.

And I never said so. Something I am pretty sure you are aware of.
Please, I respect your intelligence, don't insult mine by deliberately misreading, kay?

I wasn't diliberately misreading - I was making a point that had nothing to do with you.

Please don't insult my intelligence by regarding my points as so simplistic to be centered upon one individual.

[CaptainHaplo]

Aramike - thanks. Rather nice of you to say that. We will have to agree to disagree on that one topic, and I am pleased we both respect the rights of the other to see it as they do.

For those who pointed out my particle physics is a bit dated - yea well - so am I!

Its been near 20 years since I had a physics class - I am sure some breakthroughs have been made. I also admit the explanation was also very basic. I am glad to see that some got the point I was trying to make.

Now I am rather vocal when I see someone professing a faith and failing to abide by its tenents. I do so privately - to counsel and help that person grow. Its not done with hostility, but with the hope that they can recognize and correct their error themself. That choice is theirs. You said that "since Chrisitianity has gone on the offensive" - but I must ask - can you give specifics? I can point to numerous instances where Chrisitanity - and Christianity only - has been targetted and persecuted. If anything, I would say that modern Christianity has become alot more DEFENSIVE than in the past. At least, here in this country.

In the US during the 1980's, there was a movement called the "Moral Majority" - led by very conservative, fundamentalist Christian "preachers" and devotees, who did try repeatedly to force their moral values on our nation. They were strongly rebuffed, as they rightly should have been. Nowadays, the only time I see any moral discussion tends to be on the issues of abortion and gay marriage. Any other time Christianity is involved in a discussion - its as a target for ridicule and persecution. For example, the movement to call Christmas simply the "Holiday Season". Why is this targetted persecution? Because while you can't say "Christmas", you sure can say Hannukah, Kwanza, and Yule (which is a byproduct of ancient Paganism). Only "Christmas" is off limits.

Now if you were a person of the Christian faith, wouldn't you get a bit defensive when a "holiday display" could have all kinds of things in it, but you are not allowed to display a manger scene. Or involved in a "holiday parade" - the only restriction being there would be no CHRISTIAN themed floats - but everything else is ok?

I won't defend every action made by a person calling themselves "Christian", but in a case like this thread - there was no provocation offered - it was started simply as what appeared to be an attack on people of one specific faith.

There have been numerous threads discussing and contrasting Islam and Christianity for example. Each person has had the opportunity to put forth their view, and note or link supporting information. Thats a discussion - or at least the beginnings of one. This thread - started simply as a "Look at the stupidity of those who think this". At least, that is how it appeared in my view.

I could offer a lot more difficult contradictions found in the Bible, some that have I have posed to some rather well known theologians and they looked at me stumped. I don't need to, because I am secure in what I know - or believe (use whatever term you wish) - and have no need to make anyone else question their path.

To hold someone or their belief up for ridicule, is akin to insulting them for no good reason. Its often done to try to make the person ridiculing them feel superior without good cause. A sad commentary, but often true.

Originally Posted by Aramike

I wasn't diliberately misreading - I was making a point that had nothing to do with you.

Please don't insult my intelligence by regarding my points as so simplistic to be centered upon one individual.

Q.E.D.


But not worth the discussion.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Q.E.D.


But not worth the discussion.

You're the one that said that the 10 Commandments are not an issue for you, ergo my statement does not apply to you.

Even though the other things you "have a problem with" hardly constitute making your life harder. Luckily, in the US none of the founding fathers were stupid enough to try to put in an amendment giving people the right to not be annoyed.

But here's another example of the way you and I obviously approach the question differently:

I have a problem with christians rather accepting holocaust deniers then liberals within their ranks, as happend here just recently with the catholic church.

*I* would have said that I have a problem with PEOPLE who ... I wouldn't ascribe such idiocy to a large group who, by and large, don't agree with this extremism.

Frankly, I often find close-minded atheists use any excuse to condemn religion, although it is individuals deserving of that condemnation. But I guess that's easier...

Whatever, have the last word on the issue if you feel the urgend need to.

Originally Posted by Aramike

But here's another example of the way you and I obviously approach the question differently:

*I* would have said that I have a problem with PEOPLE who ... I wouldn't ascribe such idiocy to a large group who, by and large, don't agree with this extremism.

Frankly, I often find close-minded atheists use any excuse to condemn religion, although it is individuals deserving of that condemnation. But I guess that's easier...

Let's give you some facts:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129591

This whole affair caused some great controversy over here, in which quite a couple bishops made clear critique of the pope, at all, is unasked for. Only after immense public pressure and after way to long a time did the church comply and acted accordingly.

My original statement was no generalisation put here out of spite, but based on some real and very recent happenings. This together with repeated abuse of children, and I think the US has their own stories to tell in this regard, and consequent "protection" of such folks by the church, makes this quite a bit more then just unbased prejudice.

Frankly, I often find close-minded religion supporters use any excuse to defend religion and put the blames on individuals, if at all, although it is the whole group responsible for the actions of their members while beeing in service for that group. But I guess that's easier...

[Aramike]

Frankly, I often find close-minded religion supporters use any excuse to defend religion and put the blames on individuals, if at all, although it is the whole group responsible for the actions of their members while beeing in service for that group. But I guess that's easier...

Nice try.

A: I'm not a "closed-minded" supporter of religion, in any way, shape, or form. My posts on this topic paints that quite clearly, and though you probably wish I were in order to support your argument, I am not.

B: Judging individuals as responsible is easier than judging an entire group? That's akin to saying that generalizations are tougher to articulate than specifics. You've just made a very transparent and absurd attempt at roundabout, friend.

Oh, and by the way, the Catholic Church does not solely represent Christianity. Yet another reason one should look at individuals and not groups.