U-995 in Laboe, Germany sidetrip

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Carotio

The ferry Rødby-Puttgarten carries both the cars and train passengers, and it's about 1 hour.

The only ferry travelling to and from Kiel to a Danish port was to Bagenkop on the island of Langeland, but the route has been closed down AFAIR, besides it would not be a convenient route.

So as I see it, there are three choices for Kiel-Copenhagen:

1) by car, over the Rødby-Puttgarten ferry

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten

3) by train up through Jutland, over Funen, across the Great Belt Bridge and tunnel and over Sealand ending up in Copenhagen. It's a longer route, but you'll see more.

With few members, the car option may be good, but with a larger number, I would suggest the train option as the most cosy way to travel for a group. Besides, there MAY be group discounts, but I don't know it for sure.

2) by train, also over Rødby-Puttgarten There is a train that takes the direct route across the Fehmarn bay?? Are you sure?

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

There is a train that takes the direct route across the Fehmarn bay?? Are you sure?

That is true. The routes I linked all go over that ferry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogelfluglinie

Since German Railway lists this route as default, it is the faster one (faster than going North and over land and then do the island-hopping). Prices for one way ticket vary from 63 to 88 euros, depending on the train(s) you take. 0-3 changes. Ironically, the trip with 3 changes is the fastest (5:08).

There might be another alternative: renting a small bus with driver. Somebody in Denmark would have to check the prices for that. If the group is big enough, and while train tickets already would cost the single person around 140 Euros for moving there and back, it might be an alternative for you.

You really want to jump off the airplane on the 16th, then embark on the Kiel trip the same day, move back to Kopenhagen, again the same day, and then continue with the meeting the next day? Sounds like stress, pure stress, Neal.

[Carotio]

Yes, Neal, I'm sure as Skybird also wrote. I used to make a trip to Lübeck once, and I'm pretty sure the train embarked the ferry.

I also think it can be a stress day, but then again how many times does one have the option to go to Laboe as someone living far away. I live relatively close, so I'm not sure I will participate in that one-day trip, but if you really wanna go, then do it.

As Skybird suggested, I have visited the homepage for Avis, a rental office. One of many, I have to say. But just as an example.

3 screencaps below.

You'll see on the map that you have about 163 km between Copenhagen Airport (Kastrup Lufthavn) and Rødbyhavn:


And the prizes for vans:


For the 9 person van, more in detail:


That is 2,122 DKK for the rent and the first 100 km. Extra km is 3.60 DKK. And the route in Denmark is ((163+163)-100) = 226 km * 4.50 DKK = 1017 DKK + 2,122 DKK = 3139 DKK. Then you also have the extra km in Germany. But sofar it's 348,78 DKK per person in the van.

[Hitman]

There might be another alternative: renting a small bus with driver. Somebody in Denmark would have to check the prices for that. If the group is big enough, and while train tickets already would cost the single person around 140 Euros for moving there and back, it might be an alternative for you.

Ohhh yes that is fantastic idea

We get rid of the need to meet the exact schedule of the train, and we get full service from the airport or hotel to Laboe and back. Even if it costs as much as the train or more I think that would be really worth it!!!
Plus the people who arrive with jet-lag can have a sleep during the trip if they feel so

Let us list all people who would be interested in that, and then we can see if someone from Danemark can rent the bus for all of us.

Many thanks for the input Skybird

[Skybird]

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

I looked up the web for offers of bus companies to get an idea of how much it would cost, but they gave no clues on it - somebody in Denmark better files a local company around Copenhagen a request with date and destination, they then will reply with a cost offer. I have no idea what it would be like.

The ferries over the belt go twice an hour, the passage lasts ~50 minutes. That is for cars AND trains, of course. Roadkilometers from ferry to Laboe is ~100km, almost nothing of that is Autobahn, most is Land- and Bundestrasse. You need to orientate yourself, and need to find your way around and in Kiel's north. Depending on traffic, before you can embark on the parking lot at Laboe museum give those 100km 2-3 hours. Third, add the Danish side of the trip, I don'T know what kind of road you can move on from ferry to Kopenhagen. Since the road-distance is even more, also give it let'S say 2 hours minimum. I think you should not expect to make the trip anywhere below 5-5,5 hours minimum if going with car yourself. The shortest train trip is 5:08, the other train options with less changes are around 5,5 to 5,75 hours.

That is 11 hours of riding car or train in Kopenhagen and Kiel, all in one day. Add the arrival time for those just embarking from plane. Add jetlag. Add the time you spend in Laboe.

If I were you, I would add the 15th september to the whole timetable for the operation. Such stunts like planned so far I found inviting when I was at school. I would not like them anymore these days. Guys, some of you travel around half the globe - and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? This is not the sprint at the Olympics, but it is your money... Take some more time.

[Hitman]

and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...?

What better mood to enter a 1944 Type VIIC U-Boat?

Wouldn't amaze me if at the yell of Alaaaaaaaaaaarmmmmm during the visit, all of us instinctively run to the forward compartment leaving the museum guide astonished

[gandalf71]

Hi Guys,

good to hear that you consider to visit U-995 in Laboe during this years´ SubSim Meeting, really hope that I´ll make it there to meet you.

One of your questions was, what might be interesting in the vicinity of U-995 right? Depending on how much time you can afford, there are several interesting places to go, so that area makes perhaps also sense for a complete future European Subsim Meeting.

POIs I know in that area, but have not visited all of them till now

- Marine Ehrenmal (Navy Cenotaph) with attached Museum - directly vis-á-vis of the U-995, is certainly a must go. Many interesting exhibits e.g. the open "Torpedovorhalterechner" (TDC) of U-995, screw of german cruiser "Prinz Eugen" (glows in the dark by itself ... just kidding!), many flags and historical information, tons of models.

- U-Boot Ehrenmal (U-Boat Memorial) Möltenort - roughly 5km away from U-995. All names of German U-Boat men who died in WW1 and WW2 and also the men who died on U-Hai (former U-2365). Those who´ve played SH3 with GWX expansion know that memorial next to the waterline.

- HDW wharf (Thyssen Krupp Marine Systems) in Kiel - ca. 15km away from U-995, it´s the place where the current german submarines are built. It is possible to get guided tours but we maybe need the support of an organization e.g. like the DMB (Deutscher Marine Bund, German Navy Association) to get the permission for such a visit

- sewer ports Kiel-Holtenau - entrance to Kiel canal - many big ships on travel

and in a bigger circle:

- U-11 (Type 205) in Burgstaaken (Fehmarn) - roughly 80km from Kiel (lies next to the way to Rodby ferry) - open as a museum

- "U-434" (Russian Tango class submarine) in Hamburg - ca. 100km from Kiel

- Marineschule Flensburg-Mürwik (Naval Academy) - ca. 100km from Kiel - museum and library, many historic uniforms, history of the german navy. This academy is still part of german naval officers education and all U-Boot officers went through that school. It was also the seat of government of Adm. Dönitz in the last days of WWII.
Open to public only on Tuesday afternoons and closed due to renovation until June 2009 (doesn´t matter though)

And last but not least there is a very cozy and rural countryside around Kiel with many lakes, good for a short holiday trip e.g. for cycling.
Hamburg also has many more interesting places to go, as you can expect from Germany´s 2nd largest city.

If you have questions or are in need of any support organzing things, don´t hesitate to contact me.

Cheers,
Michael

P.S.:

Many thanks to Neal! For this fabulous Subsim coffe mug, it reached me on Saturday!

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

I looked up the web for offers of bus companies to get an idea of how much it would cost, but they gave no clues on it - somebody in Denmark better files a local company around Copenhagen a request with date and destination, they then will reply with a cost offer. I have no idea what it would be like.

The ferries over the belt go twice an hour, the passage lasts ~50 minutes. That is for cars AND trains, of course. Roadkilometers from ferry to Laboe is ~100km, almost nothing of that is Autobahn, most is Land- and Bundestrasse. You need to orientate yourself, and need to find your way around and in Kiel's north. Depending on traffic, before you can embark on the parking lot at Laboe museum give those 100km 2-3 hours. Third, add the Danish side of the trip, I don'T know what kind of road you can move on from ferry to Kopenhagen. Since the road-distance is even more, also give it let'S say 2 hours minimum. I think you should not expect to make the trip anywhere below 5-5,5 hours minimum if going with car yourself. The shortest train trip is 5:08, the other train options with less changes are around 5,5 to 5,75 hours.

That is 11 hours of riding car or train in Kopenhagen and Kiel, all in one day. Add the arrival time for those just embarking from plane. Add jetlag. Add the time you spend in Laboe.

If I were you, I would add the 15th september to the whole timetable for the operation. Such stunts like planned so far I found inviting when I was at school. I would not like them anymore these days. Guys, some of you travel around half the globe - and then you just want to run around in a stressing hurry, not having one minute to relax, take a breath and come to your senses, seing where you are...? This is not the sprint at the Olympics, but it is your money... Take some more time.

Thanks, Sky, for the details.

Hitman, et all, how does this sound?

Americans leave Monday 14th and fly into Copenhagen on early morning in Tuesday 15th. One day to rest up, see a little of the town, and get plenty of rest that night and solve the jet lag. Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry. See U-995, meet up with German and other western Euro members who are driving in. Then we take the train/van back OR ride back with people who have cars. If there are two or three Euro drivers, we probably will not need the train on the return trip.

We have plenty of time to finalize this, we will have better idea of who is driving in, and we can get exact train schedules. We could rent a car/bus in Cop. and drive to Laboe as a group, but then we will need to return it. If we have enough drivers meeting us at Laboe, it could save money and be more fun to train/driver.

McBeck is our Danish rep.and Carotio can also be our Danish point man. Sounds like Skybird, Gandalf and Lurchie could be excellent German liasons.

[Seeadler]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry.

There is no direct train from Copenhagen to Laboe, with train you must go first to Kiel central station and then take two busses (#102+#120) to Laboe Ehrenmal (U-995).

The trains from Copenhagen to Kiel goes the northern route through Denmark via Flensburg. The trains from Copenhagen which uses the ferry (the train moves into the ferry) goes to Lübeck and further to Hamburg.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Skybird

That I will not attend the meeting in Copenhagen does not mean that I could not assist from the distance, where possible.

Look into my eyes

You will attend.

You will attend.

You will attend.

You are getting very sleepy.

Soon you will...



I'm awake! I'm awake!



Darn! I hope that worked.

[Skybird]

First practice in front of a mirror before trying it on others.

Hm.

Or better don't.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Carotio

Yes, Neal, I'm sure as Skybird also wrote. I used to make a trip to Lübeck once, and I'm pretty sure the train embarked the ferry.

I also think it can be a stress day, but then again how many times does one have the option to go to Laboe as someone living far away. I live relatively close, so I'm not sure I will participate in that one-day trip, but if you really wanna go, then do it.

As Skybird suggested, I have visited the homepage for Avis, a rental office. One of many, I have to say. But just as an example.

3 screencaps below.

You'll see on the map that you have about 163 km between Copenhagen Airport (Kastrup Lufthavn) and Rødbyhavn:


And the prizes for vans:


For the 9 person van, more in detail:


That is 2,122 DKK for the rent and the first 100 km. Extra km is 3.60 DKK. And the route in Denmark is ((163+163)-100) = 226 km * 4.50 DKK = 1017 DKK + 2,122 DKK = 3139 DKK. Then you also have the extra km in Germany. But sofar it's 348,78 DKK per person in the van.

Very helpful!

So, that's about $60 per person to rent a 9 person van. Does that include the return mileage? Mileage to Laboe from the ferry? And ferry charge?

This is useful if we end up needing to take a van.

[Carotio]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Very helpful!

So, that's about $60 per person to rent a 9 person van. Does that include the return mileage? Mileage to Laboe from the ferry? And ferry charge?

This is useful if we end up needing to take a van.

Yes, 348,78 DKK is 58,96 $ or 46,81 €. In practical, the prizes in Denmark are sliced up in either 0,00 or 0,50 or 1,00 (the only small coin we have left is 0,50 DKK), so the prize would be 349,00 DKK. Just so you all know it.

I didn't write the mileage in Germany for one reasons: we don't know yet, where the final route is, if it's just Puttgarten-Laboe, or is it also into Kiel city or maybe a sidetrip to Lübeck.

But to give you all an idea, Puttgarden-Laboe. Here's a route map and below a description of route and info of time needed to drive that route and length.

The route in Denmark is highway from Copenhagen down to the ferry, however the highway from the bridge between Sjælland (Sealand) and Falster and to Rødbyhavn is a two lane highway road, and not very convenient to drive in bad weather - yes, I have tried. But otherwise, it's okay. You can drive with either 110 km/h or 130 km/h on that route, that is that's the allowed speed.

Now the route in Germany, will for the most part be on smaller roads, some with 80 km/h speed limit, I suppose. Which also is the reason for the estimated time schedule on the screencap, I guess. The info is: 90,09 km and that is only one way. 1 hour 12 minutes is the estimated time.

So the route length totally would be (2*163km)+(2*90,09km) = 506,18 km.
The first 100 km is included in my first proposal, so one would need to pay (4,50 DKK * 406,18 km) = 1,828 DKK for the extra km's plus the original 2,122 DKK for the rent, which is 3,950 DKK in total for a 9 person van, which is 439 DKK per person or 74.21 $ or 58.92 €

So that prize proposal is for 9 persons. And that will of course change, if it's more or fewer people. The sooner the better, if people know whether they will do the trip Copenhagen-Laboe both ways, or not. Or maybe, some will go and meet up in Laboe on their own, like German members. They may do a rent trip on their own the reverse way and keep the rented car in Denmark during the 4 day meet. That's also an option.

EDIT:
I forgot, the trip prize will most likely be without the cost of benzin/diesel for the van, so one will need to pay for that too...

Route map and route guide:

[gandalf71]

Originally Posted by Carotio

...

Now the route in Germany, will for the most part be on smaller roads, some with 80 km/h speed limit, I suppose. Which also is the reason for the estimated time schedule on the screencap, I guess. The info is: 90,09 km and that is only one way. 1 hour 12 minutes is the estimated time.

...

We drove this route starting from Plön last year in our summer holiday and I also know the final piece from Lütjenburg to Laboe, and I can tell that 1 h 12mins is an quite optimistic estimate for this route. You should calculate with 1h 30mins which would be more realistic. On many parts of the route speed is limited to 70 km/h (ca 45 mph) and there are even some villages you have to pass, there is a limit of 50 km/h (ca 30mph), and some traffic lights where you may have to stop. You should also consider that there are very likely some agricultural vehicles on the road in mid of September, which may be difficult to overtake, espacially on the last part of the trip (Lütjenburg-Laboe).

Cheers,
Michael

[Hitman]

Hitman, et all, how does this sound?

Americans leave Monday 14th and fly into Copenhagen on early morning in Tuesday 15th. One day to rest up, see a little of the town, and get plenty of rest that night and solve the jet lag. Then we rise early Weds 16th, take the train OR rent a van to Laboe, across the excellent ferry. See U-995, meet up with German and other western Euro members who are driving in. Then we take the train/van back OR ride back with people who have cars. If there are two or three Euro drivers, we probably will not need the train on the return trip.

That would be perfect for me, I would arrive at Copenhagen the 15th for lunch and be rested and ready for the 16th

For the trip I still believe the rented bus would be the best because it would bring us directly from the hotel to U-995 and back, and that is the most comfortable option. Alternatively, if we rent a car or several cars (I'd say one for each 4 persons should be OK) I can drive/share driving.